Really Happened - Page 7

Really Happened

This is a discussion on Really Happened within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am looking into different training courses in my area. This post has really made me think about what I did right and what I ...

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  1. #91
    Member Array Wvshootr5191's Avatar
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    I am looking into different training courses in my area. This post has really made me think about what I did right and what I did wrong. But as no one can change the past, we only learn from prior actions to make better decisions in the future. I really appreciate everyones insight on my situation.


  2. #92
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Your CHP (or whatever WV calls it) does not make you a LEO, or a super hero. It gives you the ability to carry a weapon for self defense. Parking lot fight, you have no earthly idea what or who started it.

    Keep clear, call 911 and be a good witness.
    This is one of the points that I was surprised wasn't mentioned sooner.
    Perhaps the guy with the knife was defending his own life, from a beating buy the other guy and five of his friends. Coming in at the point you did, there is no way of knowing who is "In the right" if there ever is such a thing in this type of situation. You assume that because the one guy has a knife he must be the bad guy.

    Consider this, as you are grappling with this guy, another concealed weapon carrier pulls up in his car. He sees you pull your gun, so he assumes you are the going to shoot the other guy.
    He wants to play Cop, so he draws and shoots you. His reasoning would be the same as yours, you have the more lethal weapon so you must be the bad guy.

  3. #93
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevem174 View Post
    15- 20 people in a fight over drugs in a parking lot.

    THAT is the reason I always carry a flash bang in my smartcarry.
    Yikes, I hope the Flash bang never goes off in there!
    That might be a little embarassing!

  4. #94
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    YParking lot fight, you have no earthly idea what or who started it.
    This is one of the points that I was surprised wasn't mentioned sooner.
    Archer's post #11, as well as #13, #15, #24 and others. It certainly is one of the primary risks of coming into a situation after it has started, daring to believe that one can know the players (who's the GG, the BG). Unless it's something hard to falsify, like a rape, brutalizing a child, or something like that, altercations are very frequently other than we think them to be. The step of intervening in such things can be brutally incorrect and end up taking out the good guy(s).
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  5. #95
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wvshootr5191 View Post
    I am looking into different training courses in my area. This post has really made me think about what I did right and what I did wrong. But as no one can change the past, we only learn from prior actions to make better decisions in the future. I really appreciate everyones insight on my situation.
    Well said!
    I am sure most if not all of the posters here are just trying to point out the risk (physical, emotional, and legal) taken when we enter into a situation that could easily esculate into a shooting situation.

    Please do not be discouraged or offended by the replies. The main purpose of these types of discussions it to make us ALL consider the possibilities in these situations. It is up to each of us to decide, (hopefully pre-incident) when and for whom we would place ourselves in harms way. At the minimum, I would suggest you at least consider ALL opinions posted here as worthy of evaluation in deciding how you want to react should another situation like this occur. This is what makes this forum so useful.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Array Adkjoe's Avatar
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    definitely a good way to get hurt/stabbed. I'm not here to criticize, you were trying to do the right thing but unfortunately the right thing isn't always the right thing. a gun had no purpose in this situation nor did you. call 911 and let someone else get stabbed for trying to break it up. Your very lucky, this could have turned out MUCH worse. Like said above if you were quicker on the draw you might be in some crap. You were trying to help, that's admirable but you got lucky, never bring a gun to a knife fight.
    Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont allows anyone
    who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed without a permit of any kind.

  7. #97
    Member Array Balog's Avatar
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    Ccw9mm brings up a good point. I'm willing to intervene to help a child, and to a lesser extent a woman or someone who is disabled or elderly. But any adult male has as much ability and opportunity to prepare for self defense as I do, and they bear the responsibility for their choices.

  8. #98
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wvshootr5191 View Post
    I am looking into different training courses in my area. This post has really made me think about what I did right and what I did wrong. But as no one can change the past, we only learn from prior actions to make better decisions in the future. I really appreciate everyone's insight on my situation.
    Now THAT is as mature and balanced as any post I've ever read on ANY forum. May we all take this to heart, and be willing to do the same.

    Seriously: there have been a fair number of folks offering 'you blew it' assessments here, and I agree on most points. (To be balanced, the OP also had a desire to protect his boss, had the means to protect himself, did NOT shoot.... and he made it home that night.)

    But look what he's doing with this post, folks: he's sucking it up and realizing that:
    • He wasn't perfect in his decisions/actions;
    • He needs more training;
    • Advice from folks here may be valuable, and is certainly worth considering;
    • He can't change what he did, but
    • He CAN prepare more effectively for the next time.

    That's a lead I can certainly follow!
    Recently updated website: http://www.damagedphotorepair.com

  9. #99
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ride4TheBrand View Post
    Here's where we stand in regard to the postings in this thread:

    The vast majority of posters in this thread would do nothing but "be a good witness and call 911".

    Sheepdogs indeed.
    So you jump into every foray that happens around you because you have a gun? Because that is what I'm gathering from this post.

    It's called exercising good judgment. Running outside with a firearm to a fight when you haven't been directly threatened, IMO, shows poor judgment.

    To the OP: good on you to seek additional training.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  10. #100
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    Having a pocket gun at work isn't necessarily a bad thing! If you want to get a LCP I'm all for it.

    Here's the thing in this particular situation! You did not see the whole encounter! You have no idea who started the fight, what the circumstances were and a lot of other details you couldn't have possibly have known unless you witnessed it from start to finish.

    Yes, nothing wrong with grabbing your gun for your own personal protection before stepping outside to see what the commotion is, however in this case, I believe you would have been way out there off the reservation had you have had the time to draw your gun.

    Just because there's visible blood and wounded people on the deck does not provide one with all the details needed to intervene with your own weapon.

    Now, had the guy turned and engaged you with threats and brandished his knife at you... Then you have to take action as you see fit, appropriate to the threat.

    Yes, it's ok to have a gun with you when you check out a disturbance in the parking lot... just don't be in a hurry to pull the gun or make assumptions regarding parts of the encounter you did not personally witness!

    When you arrive late to the game, it's often best to observe the scene for details, physical descriptions and clothing of the actors, vehicle ID and direction of travel so you can provide a good factual account of what events you actually did see to the police when they arrive.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #101
    Senior Member Array xsigma40cal's Avatar
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    Im almost inclined to say that if you had drawn and fired on "Wiggins", that you would be justified. However, the story as you put it makes it sound as if you are the point of presenting your weapon when the perpetrator is in retreat. The prosec. would take that into consideration when determining if there was any wrongful actions. The WV statute mentioned by Ride4thebrand also gives no mention to place of business, or occupation where in this case, a totally different law may apply. The bottom line is...YOU WENT TO THE FIGHT ARMED=PREMEDITATION!!! You had no immediate family or loved ones out there that were in danger of harm, nor did the conflict involve you in any way. I dont know how long you've been a CHP, but you should have known from the mandatory class you took that if you are not in danger, than it is not your fight.
    Dont take this or any other's comments on this thread as admonishment. Were all a close knit community who's concerned about eachother and the good name that comes with being able to legally carry a handgun. We dont want to see anyone hurt or our reputations tarnished by any uneducated knee-jerk reactions. I hope you learned something. Stay safe.

  12. #102
    Member Array mauser1959's Avatar
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    First of all, a fight is in progress, it is a good thing to break up said fight. It is prudent to try to arm ones self during a confrontation. The gun was never drawn, however the option was there if need arose. From the looks of peoples replies it would seem that the woman that had her arm hacked up a few years ago by her husband in wal mart would have been left to die, god only knows what she was doing wrong. It is true that your CCW does not give you the ability to be superman or Jr Leo, however that does not say that you should not protect others from violence. I believe that in most states the use of justifiable homicide is to protect ones self or others from great bodily harm or death... this case would sure appear to be be at least great bodily harm.
    Last edited by Bumper; March 1st, 2010 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Removed name calling.

  13. #103
    Member Array ScubaDuba's Avatar
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    I can appreciate your compassion, however, I hope the person you choose to protect is not the agressor. Of course, in some circumstances it is immediately clear what's going on, in others not so much.

    As far as my humble opinion on helping others goes, I did my bit putting my ass on the line for everyone else. That's over now. My primary responsibility is to myself and my family.

    I'm not going to run around in parking lots breaking up fights. If I see a woman being beaten or something of that nature I'll always try to help out, but generally if two knuckleheads are going at it, they can kill each other for all I care.
    Healthy children will not fear life, if their parents have integrity enough not to fear death.
    -TIME DEUM ET OPERARE IUSTITIAM--

  14. #104
    Member Array mauser1959's Avatar
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    One other thing that I found interesting, the chance that drugs might have been involved makes attempted homicide or homicide justified? I read several posters give that opinion, yet in most state possession of pot of small amounts is at most a misdemeanor ( and probably should not be illegal constitutionally). What is next that we justify homicide for?

    It is of interest that LEOs are for the most part historians, in that they report on what happened at a crime , do not stop it. If LEOs were able to stop crimes in progress ,then there would be a lot less bank robberies. The same is true that LEOs can not protect anyone, if they could there would never be any bank robberies.

    Walmart hero rebuked by Handgun Control, Inc.

    After Sandra Suter, a Florida permit holder, used her handgun to stop a knife-wielding assailant at a local Walmart, Kim Mariani, Spokesperson for Handgun Control, Inc., weighed in.

    "God forbid something went wrong," she said. "It just escalates the situation, and a lot of times it's unnecessary."

    The assailant had already slashed two employees, and was rampaging about the store threatening others. Suter drew her pistol and ordered the madman to stop. Looking down the barrel of a .40-caliber semiautomatic gave him a quick burst of sanity. He quietly surrendered to the grandmother.

    HCI's prescription for dealing with violence leaves out armed self-defense. They'd have Sandra Suter stand by and watch while the thug kills or maims a few people.

    Not only should we watch and do nothing if we see someone else being attacked, according to the gun-banners, we should meekly comply with every demand if we are attacked.
    http://gunowners.org/sk0202.htm

    Sounds like HCI has some inroads with concealed weapons carriers.

  15. #105
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mauser1959 It is true that your CCW does not give you the ability to be superman or Jr Leo, however that does not say that you should not protect others from violence.
    I don't carry a weapon to protect others from violence. Especially when the others are two adult males who are engaged in illegal activity in the first place.

    Originally posted by Mauser1959 First of all, a fight is in progress, it is a good thing to break up said fight.
    I recognize no moral or societal obligation to interject myself into such a situation and I really question the motives of anyone who does.

    The police have authority to investigate and take action, I don't. they also have radios, and back up, and protective equipment and Worker's comp insurance, and life insurance and state approved pensions and full retirment benefits if they are injured on the job. Again, I don't.

    If two males are fighting each other in the parking lot It's not my business.

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