C'mon people, really?

This is a discussion on C'mon people, really? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm quite dismayed by the reactions of some people on this article which was posted earlier in the Defensive/tactical training forum, I thought this would ...

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Thread: C'mon people, really?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array xsigma40cal's Avatar
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    C'mon people, really?

    I'm quite dismayed by the reactions of some people on this article which was posted earlier in the Defensive/tactical training forum, I thought this would be a better place for it. Its as if I've been transported to an alternate universe where everyones man-stones have fallen off and is now on display in a mayonnaise jar.

    Just read the facts of this situation and disregard the commentary of the author. Think about what you as a CC'er would do in this situation even knowing that state law is behind you 100% and consider the nature of the below mentioned "possible crime being committed."

    " out walking in our neighborhood a couple of days ago around dusk. I was almost through with my walk, when I noticed a couple of girls, probably around 5 or 6 years old, walking toward me about a block away. Now our neighborhood is a middle-class, blue-collar, very safe neighborhood, so nothing unusual about this.

    A few seconds later, an earlier-model small sedan with faded paint stopped by the girls, and a man emerged and approached the girls. Still nothing particularly unusual, but I became more interested. The man was wearing dirty jeans, work boots, a dirty T-shirt and a black baseball cap. The man exchanged a few words with the girls, and then grabbed one of them by the arm. She tried to fall to the ground kicking and screaming, and her friend ran away.

    The man dragged the screaming girl around to the driver side of the car and pushed her in, and then slid in behind her. Now I was on high alert. As the vehicle started towards me, I had by then approached within about 50 yards and drawn my Glock 26. I had a clear shot at the driver's head through the windshield. As I took aim, I remembered that the Texas Penal Code gives one the right to protect the lives of third parties. Specifically, Section 9.33 reads:

    "A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

    (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

    (2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.The Texas CHL course is very good at educating students about the legal ramifications of concealed carry, and I had an excellent instructor. But our instructor also hit very hard on the point that we should all decide whether we would be willing to risk going to jail and depriving our families of a husband and father for many years over the death of an innocent bystander in the attempt to protect a third party.

    All of this was going through my head. This all seemed to be happening in slow motion, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Rather than shooting, I lowered my gun and got the license number of the car as it went by me. I used my cell phone to call 911 and report the abduction. Chills went through my body as a few hours later, an officer called me to let me know that they had located the car and driver at his residence a few blocks away.

    It turned out that the man was the girl's father and he stopped to pick her up on her way home because dinner was waiting. The girl had other ideas - she was determined to walk home with her next-door girl-friend."

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array Ride4TheBrand's Avatar
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    No harm, no foul.
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  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by xsigma40cal View Post
    I'm quite dismayed by the reactions of some people on this article which was posted earlier in the Defensive/tactical training forum, I thought this would be a better place for it. Its as if I've been transported to an alternate universe where everyones man-stones have fallen off and is now on display in a mayonnaise jar.
    Just what kind of reaction are you expecting? That every weapon-carrying, red-blooded, testosterone-soaked American boy would be running up to the dirty-jeans guy and shoving a gun up his nose???

    Frankly, I'm impressed that the response has been as damped as it was. I want people who carry weapons to leave the brain engaged full time and not jump to rash conclusions about who needs to be drawn down on. Don't confuse this with apathy or lack of courage, think of it as slowing things down for a few seconds to avoid making an irreversible decision.
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    Member Array Intrepid's Avatar
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    That's a tough call, first thing that came to my mind while reading the description is that its the girls father.

    For me to intervene more than getting a plate number and calling 911, I would have the know the girl and know 100% that the person abducting her is not related to her.

    If I heard the conversation between the girl and adult, and it did not include names, or the adult used phrases like, "hey girl..." or "hey Kid.." it would make taking action a little easier.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Just what kind of reaction are you expecting? That every weapon-carrying, red-blooded, testosterone-soaked American boy would be running up to the dirty-jeans guy and shoving a gun up his nose???

    Frankly, I'm impressed that the response has been as damped as it was. I want people who carry weapons to leave the brain engaged full time and not jump to rash conclusions about who needs to be drawn down on. Don't confuse this with apathy or lack of courage, think of it as slowing things down for a few seconds to avoid making an irreversible decision.
    +1

    Not to mention it states this happened in a blue collar neighborhood and the clothing worn matches that. The actions of the child was not uncommon for one in the age group mentioned. That's two observations would not lead me to to think it was enough to use force.

    I would be drawn to the situation but could not yet be convinced that it necessitates drawing a gun. A plate number and a call to 911 most likely but not yet the use of force.

    "A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

    (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and


    (2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

    While a DA MAY decide your actions fell within the confines of the law as stated above, the situation is not clear enough for me. I do not want to go to prison any more that I want to shoot an innocent person.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    In the scenario, the author/carrier had no time to address the adult male. In such a situation, I would try to do so if at all possible, even if it required going to his driver's side window. But even if so, he could lie and tell me he was the father even if he wasnt.

    Thus, even so, I'd end up calling 911 with a plate number and car/people descriptions.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    As far as I know the story I posted actually happened. It was part of an email I got from USCCA. The point of the article was that (obviously) the gun shouldn't always be our first choice.

    Put yourself in dad's shoes for just a second, you're driving home W/ your disobediant brat of a child when someone you don't know points a gun at your car

    How would you react?

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    You would be assuming an awful lot,you have no Idea and looks can be deceiving,no way would I shoot,I would get a plate and if I was close enough to my vehicle I would follow until LEO intercepted
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    So I read the other thread. I saw a few people imply that calling 911 & identifying the car/driver was 'nothing.'

    ??? What are the other options besides a) shooting driver or b) drawing gun and brandishing to try and keep him from driving away (because in scenario, the man was already in the car with the kid).

    Is c) 'standing in front of car to prevent leaving' a recommendation? (not me!)


    a) is completely wrong, as we've seen. And b? Well, you could still end up shooting if 'dad' has a gun or tries to run you over or....? And drawing gun will possibly traumatize the child, seeing a gun locked onto daddy.

    So what DO people suggest doing if calling 911 with info isnt enough? (Again, according to scenario, they are already in the car before observer can react). Following the car, if possible, seemed helpful...altho things will get interesting when they reach home.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #10
    Member Array gunsite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xsigma40cal View Post
    I'm quite dismayed by the reactions of some people on this article which was posted earlier in the Defensive/tactical training forum, I thought this would be a better place for it. Its as if I've been transported to an alternate universe where everyones man-stones have fallen off and is now on display in a mayonnaise jar.

    Just read the facts of this situation and disregard the commentary of the author. Think about what you as a CC'er would do in this situation even knowing that state law is behind you 100% and consider the nature of the below mentioned "possible crime being committed."

    " out walking in our neighborhood a couple of days ago around dusk. I was almost through with my walk, when I noticed a couple of girls, probably around 5 or 6 years old, walking toward me about a block away. Now our neighborhood is a middle-class, blue-collar, very safe neighborhood, so nothing unusual about this.

    A few seconds later, an earlier-model small sedan with faded paint stopped by the girls, and a man emerged and approached the girls. Still nothing particularly unusual, but I became more interested. The man was wearing dirty jeans, work boots, a dirty T-shirt and a black baseball cap. The man exchanged a few words with the girls, and then grabbed one of them by the arm. She tried to fall to the ground kicking and screaming, and her friend ran away.

    The man dragged the screaming girl around to the driver side of the car and pushed her in, and then slid in behind her. Now I was on high alert. As the vehicle started towards me, I had by then approached within about 50 yards and drawn my Glock 26. I had a clear shot at the driver's head through the windshield. As I took aim, I remembered that the Texas Penal Code gives one the right to protect the lives of third parties. Specifically, Section 9.33 reads:

    "A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

    (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

    (2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.The Texas CHL course is very good at educating students about the legal ramifications of concealed carry, and I had an excellent instructor. But our instructor also hit very hard on the point that we should all decide whether we would be willing to risk going to jail and depriving our families of a husband and father for many years over the death of an innocent bystander in the attempt to protect a third party.

    All of this was going through my head. This all seemed to be happening in slow motion, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Rather than shooting, I lowered my gun and got the license number of the car as it went by me. I used my cell phone to call 911 and report the abduction. Chills went through my body as a few hours later, an officer called me to let me know that they had located the car and driver at his residence a few blocks away.

    It turned out that the man was the girl's father and he stopped to pick her up on her way home because dinner was waiting. The girl had other ideas - she was determined to walk home with her next-door girl-friend."
    As i was reading your post i was think about the ending before i read it, according to your text you had reason to believe an abduction was taking place, but also, reason to believe it was a child's father, uncle or something, i wouldn't want to go to court with his scenario if you had taken the shot, you did the smart thing.

    I always tell people who are authorize to conceal carry... they can never go to jail, or get sued for NOT TAKING THE SHOT.

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    I'm left wondering what the OP would have done in the exact scenario?
    I know I wouldn't have, I wouldn't even have thrown my stones at him.
    Oh wait, I don't have any.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    People need to consider what they would do if they did not have a gun on them...and then consider taking that same action if they do have one. Like I've read on this forum (and I'm sorry I do not know who to give credit for this quote to), "When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail."

    Your mind is your first tool that should be engaged. Cell phone, picture phone, flashlight...all tools that should be at our disposal as EDC items. If you get pictures of the man, the girl, the car, and tag and call 911 to report suspicious looking activity the remainder of the situation should be handled by the police.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    I tried reading all the comments and excuse me if I am repeating but the young girl was NEVER in imminent danger of bodily harm or death. It might have been the outcome later on if the driver was indeed a pervert, but at the time you were there, nothing happened that can be construed as imminent danger--in your mind maybe, but not from the facts--your mind and your thinking do not count--yes your mind could be right and that would have been unfortunate, but it is not up to you under the circumstances presented.
    Question: What would have happened and what would you do if the father, instead of pushing child in car, grabbed the kid and started to "whip her ass". It is somewhat different in that you can at least approach and say something but at what point do you find this situation something that you will intervene in? Imminent danger of death or bodily injury is quite far down the line from a good "whip your ass"---I would hope that your firearm is not on your side as you go over to this situation.

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugergirl View Post
    I'm left wondering what the OP would have done in the exact scenario?
    I know I wouldn't have, I wouldn't even have thrown my stones at him.
    Oh wait, I don't have any.
    I couldn't have thrown mine either unless my wife would have let me take them out on my walk. I currently get occasional visitation....supervised, of course.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  16. #15
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    The man exchanged a few words with the girls
    This would have been my Que to stand down and start information gathering. Calling 911 and reporting was the correct thing to do. Had the person been closer you may have been able to assess if there was a threat or not.

    We are not LEO. The paper and plastic card only allows us to carry. Its up to our own person to assess the situation and we have the freedom to make a decision. Good or bad we have to deal with the consequences of our actions.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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