Defensive Scenario That I've Never Seen Discussed

This is a discussion on Defensive Scenario That I've Never Seen Discussed within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was a relief worker after Hurricane Andrew, and a lot of theft and looting was going on. I don't have the idea that I ...

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Thread: Defensive Scenario That I've Never Seen Discussed

  1. #1
    Member Array Pale Horse's Avatar
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    Defensive Scenario That I've Never Seen Discussed

    I was a relief worker after Hurricane Andrew, and a lot of theft and looting was going on.

    I don't have the idea that I need to shoot a fleeing thief because self defense law recognizes grave bodily harm that is inescapable and unavoidable as a necessary component of justifiable homicide.

    There were looters who were stealing oxygen tanks and other medical equipment from people with lung diseases (like asthma, lung cancer, kids with cystic fibrosis, etc.), and the authorities were not able to respond because it was a disaster.

    My point is that a reasonable person could expect a home bound lung patient to suffocate and choke to death--sometimes within minutes--without the oxygen equipment, so how does self-defense law approach the concept of chasing and shooting the thief in order to get the equipment back so that the patient may be kept alive?

    Bear in mind that this isn't purely theoretical to me. There are a lot of elderly sick people down here in Florida (we EMS providers sometimes call south Florida 'God's waiting room') who use home oxygen, and we regularly get pummeled by hurricanes.

    I have seen people who have died (during Andrew) when they couldn't get help when the home oxygen equipment went on the fritz and 911 wasn't available.

    I'm not in favor of shooting someone down to defend a piece of property, but this situation with home medical equipment seems like an exception to me.

    Please everyone, tell me your thoughts.

    Thank you.

    All my best,

    ---Kevin

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array deadeye72's Avatar
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    If it were my parent or child, I would not hesitate to shoot. My families life is a lot more important than that of a piece of scum that would steal their needed medical equipment.
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    Member Array Medic218's Avatar
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    Well, if you want to look at it from one perspective you could look at it like this.
    Should that patients condition severly deterioate in the absence of an oxygen delivery device and subsequently loose thier life in the process then my POV is of the type that stealing someones O2 cyclinder is the same as poisining or shooting that same patient.
    In the event of a mass disaster like Andrew, Ike or Katrina where a LEO is nowhere around I would think(though far fetched and getting a judge to agree may be difficult) that shooting to regain the patients equipment in order to save thier life is the same as shooting someone who is physically threatening that same persons life.
    "I don't like repeat offenders, I like DEAD offenders!" -- Ted Nugent
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    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Just curios......why would someone want to steal an oxygen bottle?

  6. #5
    Member Array Medic218's Avatar
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    people steal stuff just to steal stuff, anything they think they can get some money for is gone if it isnt nailed down.
    "I don't like repeat offenders, I like DEAD offenders!" -- Ted Nugent
    "Not everyone can be born with common sense, some are born liberals." -- MM218

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    Firstly, Florida allows deadly force in preventing 'forcible felony'. Secondly, Florida law allows that 'forcible robbery' is a second degree felony, as I have determined by googling it.

    It is not clear what classification 'looting', specifically, so called, has been ascribed. I am still searching for that. However, it would certainly be 'forcible'. Therefore, it seems a good argument could, and should, be made in defense of any action one took against such a misdeed by an outlaw, which resulted in the poor, wretched, disadvantaged member of society succumbing to wounds sustained in the process of his action of 'forcible robbery'.

    IANAL. I Thank GOD.
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    Member Array ZombieShoot's Avatar
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    The odds are high you would be charged with murder.

    Florida doesn't allow shooting over property and unless the looter is directly attacking someone (or you) in order to get the property the only crime they are committing is theft.

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    Member Array carry ok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieShoot View Post
    The odds are high you would be charged with murder.

    Florida doesn't allow shooting over property and unless the looter is directly attacking someone (or you) in order to get the property the only crime they are committing is theft.
    Zombie, here is the statute.

    Florida Crimes Code Section 776.08 - Justifiable Use Of Force - Forcible felony. - Florida Attorney Resources - Florida Laws

    Based on my reading of it, I do not see the restriction you mentioned, of 'directly attacking' someone. However, IANAL.
    Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is No Vice--Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice is No Virtue. - Senator Barry Goldwater

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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    I hate to be blunt...

    OK, no I don't...

    The situation you are talking about, the immediate aftermath of a crisis situation, is more akin to low intensity warfare, not normal self defense.

    As such...things change.

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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MedicMan218 View Post
    Well, if you want to look at it from one perspective you could look at it like this.
    Should that patients condition severly deterioate in the absence of an oxygen delivery device and subsequently loose thier life in the process then my POV is of the type that stealing someones O2 cyclinder is the same as poisining or shooting that same patient.
    In the event of a mass disaster like Andrew, Ike or Katrina where a LEO is nowhere around I would think(though far fetched and getting a judge to agree may be difficult) that shooting to regain the patients equipment in order to save thier life is the same as shooting someone who is physically threatening that same persons life.
    Excellent post.

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    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Thank goodness for the Texas Castle Doctrine.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
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    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
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    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by searcher 45 View Post
    Thank goodness for the Texas Castle Doctrine.
    would that allow someone who is not related to you or not living in your residence shoot someone who is stealing your property?...not sure thats where you wanted to go....

    although i'm pretty much just guessing here...i'm thinking that drawing and warning someone carrying an oxygen tank would pretty much end the thought in their mind that the o2 is gonna fetch a pretty penny and turn them into a track star...if they display a weapon at that point your dilemma is solved...

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    Distinguished Member Array BlueNinjaGo's Avatar
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    If the oxygen tank was keeping a friend or family member alive, I would retrieve it. If that means I am forced to shoot a criminal that is attempting to murder my family member or friend, then I would do so. I would obviously try any other means necessary though. Shooting someone is the last thing I'd want to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    Just curios......why would someone want to steal an oxygen bottle?
    My company has to be careful since we get quite a few of our oxygen bottles stolen. Then again, ours are used for welding. Not sure about medical ones. (I've read that pure oxygen can get someone "high" but I've never looked into it, so I'm not certain. Also, criminals steal just to steal.)

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MedicMan218 View Post
    Well, if you want to look at it from one perspective you could look at it like this.
    Should that patients condition severly deterioate in the absence of an oxygen delivery device and subsequently loose thier life in the process then my POV is of the type that stealing someones O2 cyclinder is the same as poisining or shooting that same patient.
    In the event of a mass disaster like Andrew, Ike or Katrina where a LEO is nowhere around I would think(though far fetched and getting a judge to agree may be difficult) that shooting to regain the patients equipment in order to save thier life is the same as shooting someone who is physically threatening that same persons life.
    That would be my defense. I hope I never have to use it!
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

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  16. #15
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    My instructor here in Michigan pointed this out.
    In Michigan it is not lawfull to use deadly force to defend property. However you can attempt to stop someone from removing your property.

    So if someone is taking your oxygen tank and you grab a hold of the tank the thief has two choices, let go or make you let go. If you hold on tight enough he is going to have to harm you to make you let go. Now its obvious that you could suffer grave bodily harm or death.

    This isn't a perfect solution, but if your willing to get that close to the thief, and made take a few hits it gets works. I know there are flaws in this, one, your esculating the situation by approaching the thief, and two, your exposing yourself to real danger. In the case of a looting after a huricane and it's life support, I think a reasonable man would be in fear of thier life just at the loss.

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