Robbed at gunpoint, Fight or Comply?

This is a discussion on Robbed at gunpoint, Fight or Comply? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What I'm getting from Tubby is. Take the "fight" to the bad guy. You take the offensive, not the defense. In some cases this maybe ...

View Poll Results: Robbed at gunpoint - Fight or comply?

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  • Comply with the BG, give him your $$ and play the odds that he's not going to shoot you if you comply.

    105 31.25%
  • Fight

    231 68.75%
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Thread: Robbed at gunpoint, Fight or Comply?

  1. #106
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    What I'm getting from Tubby is. Take the "fight" to the bad guy. You take the offensive, not the defense. In some cases this maybe the way to go. Actions are always faster than reactions.

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  3. #107
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    You just don't get it. The fact that it has to be explained to you means you don't understand the concept of self defense.
    You're right I guess. We dont.

    Can you please clarify your post? What dont we understand about the concept of SD?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  4. #108
    Member Array mirage2521's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    And YOU will never have to deal with the SAME "robber" pointing a deadly weapon against your family....
    Unless I have the misfortune of having to read about your demise in the Post and Courier. You are not going to out-draw a drawn weapon.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  5. #109
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirage2521 View Post
    Unless I have the misfortune of having to read about your demise in the Post and Courier. You are not going to out-draw a drawn weapon.
    Says who, you?

    Listen.....We can posture all day long here in an "internet" thread about "what if's".

    MY position, based on MY actions, and MY service in the military, dictates that *I* will not allow said SOB to hold my life nor my family's life in HIS hands. It really is, that simple.

    To state flatly, that "You are not going to out-draw a drawn weapon", is an assumption on your part, is it not? There are many factors that are employed in a combat/hostile situation including movement, eye contact (or non-eye contact), and even something as simple as using NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) to avoid/change/alter/disguise/distort/manipulate the situation at hand.

    However, there ARE techniques that humans fall for, and advantages are effectively used in this realm. Is that the "be all end all"? Naaaaah. But it's that training, and the training many practice instead of shooting at a piece of paper in a stationary position over and over, that "can" make the difference and "can" bring you home. Ahh, I'm rambling...

    As others have stated, human beings don't always fall for the "throw the wallet in the air and weeeeee he goes to catch it and drops his gun and..."
    Human beings don't also always take your wallet when you give it to them, and with a wink and a nod, walk off into the sunset with your life intact. THIS.....is the fine line I'm not willing to play around with. THIS...is where a decision must be made, and an action taken. I'm not going to toy around with the idea in my head about "Oh gosh, I hope he doesn't shoot me or my family". He's going to pay for HIS actions, on that day, and it's not going to be pretty. I don't carry a deadly weapon for any other reason than knowing full well that I will HAVE to use...it. Forcefully.

    Some here, take the position that they will comply, and I am perfectly fine with that. I "may" comply at the moment, and training and experience would dictate my actions at the time of the incident. My statements in no way indicate that I would "each and every time" pull a Clint Eastwood/Jackie Chan move if this situation arose.

    My point....again...is that these scumbags do NOT deserve acting like all is well, and assuming they won't shoot me anyway if I give them my wallet. It's simply not reality, and the odds unfortunately don't favor those who trust these idiots. I have seen enough, and been through enough, to trust no one on planet earth with the moniker of "human" attached to them. I simply do not trust someone who has ALREADY pulled a DEADLY weapon on me, or that that they will simply move on and "just" rob someone else later on.
    I, as others, have trained for these actions, and again, I simply am not going to put up with it.

    You may read about me, but noone will ever read about YOU, or anyone else, regarding the same individual. He may get my wallet, for the moment, but he will also get lead, firepower, and the complete hell on earth and fury that he's never seen before nor ever will see again. He's not going home to Momma'.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  6. #110
    Member Array b1780's Avatar
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    TheoryRealm, its nice to see an inteligent comment. I agree whole heartedly with your post. Being former military, I too understand that training is very important. This is all we have to rely on when the SHTF. People who shoot at the range and think they are ready to shoot in a SD situation have their head stuck in the sand. Having been in many combat situations I can tell you that it is far from the same. If some SOB pulls a gun on me then I am going to unleash hell on earth against him. I will not be a victim nor will I let my family fall victim to some scum bag simply because he drew before I did. I carry because I have seen the scum on earth and know what they are capable of. If people want to carry for SD then they must take advanced training. I may not be able to draw first, but I assure you I will be walking away from the fight, he will not be.

  7. #111
    Distinguished Member Array Arko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    Says who, you?

    Listen.....We can posture all day long here in an "internet" thread about "what if's".

    MY position, based on MY actions, and MY service in the military, dictates that *I* will not allow said SOB to hold my life nor my family's life in HIS hands. It really is, that simple.

    To state flatly, that "You are not going to out-draw a drawn weapon", is an assumption on your part, is it not? There are many factors that are employed in a combat/hostile situation including movement, eye contact (or non-eye contact), and even something as simple as using NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) to avoid/change/alter/disguise/distort/manipulate the situation at hand.

    However, there ARE techniques that humans fall for, and advantages are effectively used in this realm. Is that the "be all end all"? Naaaaah. But it's that training, and the training many practice instead of shooting at a piece of paper in a stationary position over and over, that "can" make the difference and "can" bring you home. Ahh, I'm rambling...

    As others have stated, human beings don't always fall for the "throw the wallet in the air and weeeeee he goes to catch it and drops his gun and..."
    Human beings don't also always take your wallet when you give it to them, and with a wink and a nod, walk off into the sunset with your life intact. THIS.....is the fine line I'm not willing to play around with. THIS...is where a decision must be made, and an action taken. I'm not going to toy around with the idea in my head about "Oh gosh, I hope he doesn't shoot me or my family". He's going to pay for HIS actions, on that day, and it's not going to be pretty. I don't carry a deadly weapon for any other reason than knowing full well that I will HAVE to use...it. Forcefully.

    Some here, take the position that they will comply, and I am perfectly fine with that. I "may" comply at the moment, and training and experience would dictate my actions at the time of the incident. My statements in no way indicate that I would "each and every time" pull a Clint Eastwood/Jackie Chan move if this situation arose.

    My point....again...is that these scumbags do NOT deserve acting like all is well, and assuming they won't shoot me anyway if I give them my wallet. It's simply not reality, and the odds unfortunately don't favor those who trust these idiots. I have seen enough, and been through enough, to trust no one on planet earth with the moniker of "human" attached to them. I simply do not trust someone who has ALREADY pulled a DEADLY weapon on me, or that that they will simply move on and "just" rob someone else later on.
    I, as others, have trained for these actions, and again, I simply am not going to put up with it.

    You may read about me, but noone will ever read about YOU, or anyone else, regarding the same individual. He may get my wallet, for the moment, but he will also get lead, firepower, and the complete hell on earth and fury that he's never seen before nor ever will see again. He's not going home to Momma'.
    + a bazillion, what he said.
    "Don't Tread on Me"

  8. #112
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    What I'm getting from Tubby is. Take the "fight" to the bad guy. You take the offensive, not the defense. In some cases this maybe the way to go. Actions are always faster than reactions.
    If his gun is drawn....you are the one 'reacting.'
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  9. #113
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    MY position, based on MY actions, and MY service in the military, dictates that *I* will not allow said SOB to hold my life nor my family's life in HIS hands. It really is, that simple.

    To state flatly, that "You are not going to out-draw a drawn weapon", is an assumption on your part, is it not? There are many factors that are employed in a combat/hostile situation including movement, eye contact (or non-eye contact), and even something as simple as using NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) to avoid/change/alter/disguise/distort/manipulate the situation at hand.

    .

    Thank you for your service, sincerely.

    For the most part, I agree with your post. Except where you imply you would take action if and when the threat has passed (i.e. decoy wallet worked, bg leaving.) That is your choice; I understand feeling that way myself.

    However the bold above is indeed a fact. The many gun professionals and institutes and military have tested this. What you describe after tho, is the way to level that playing field....deception, CQB, etc. And training & practice...which you have....is required for that.

    I think that many many people overestimate their competancy in this type of situation. You have professional training....and have performed under similar circumstances. It makes a huge difference.....performing under that adreneline dump.

    People have no idea that they 'tell' when they are going for a gun instead of a wallet...but a streetwise bg sees it. It's gonna be in your eyes...cuz your mind is going like a freight train. Under stress, that holster thumb release doesnt work like butter, like at home (I know...I practice at home and still bobble it at IDPA...just my own incompetance? Or distractions and stress? Both probably).

    Opportunities may very well present themselves even to intermediate (at best) shooters like me in this scenario.....but I think it's important to guage the realities of your training...and their advantages...and be prepared to do something besides fighting back if you really dont have to (cuz alot of people here sound like they just 'want' to).
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  10. #114
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    If his gun is drawn....you are the one 'reacting.'
    Well, yes and no. Yes you are reacting to the situation he's put you in, but at the same time it's more than just one action/reaction. Every scenario is a complex series of actions and reactions, each one affecting the fluidity and outcome of the situation.

    While you drawing or not drawing is a reaction to the threat of force, it's also an action in and of itself. If he has his weapon pointed at me and I step forward and sideways preparing to disarm him, he's now got to make a decision as to what he's going to do about what just happened.
    Last edited by paaiyan; March 10th, 2010 at 02:26 PM. Reason: Clarification of my point.
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  11. #115
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Thank you for your service, sincerely.

    For the most part, I agree with your post. Except where you imply you would take action if and when the threat has passed (i.e. decoy wallet worked, bg leaving.) That is your choice; I understand feeling that way myself.


    However the bold above is indeed a fact. The many gun professionals and institutes and military have tested this. What you describe after tho, is the way to level that playing field....deception, CQB, etc. And training & practice...which you have....is required for that.

    I think that many many people overestimate their competancy in this type of situation. You have professional training....and have performed under similar circumstances. It makes a huge difference.....performing under that adreneline dump.

    People have no idea that they 'tell' when they are going for a gun instead of a wallet...but a streetwise bg sees it. It's gonna be in your eyes...cuz your mind is going like a freight train. Under stress, that holster thumb release doesnt work like butter, like at home (I know...I practice at home and still bobble it at IDPA...just my own incompetance? Or distractions and stress? Both probably).

    Opportunities may very well present themselves even to intermediate (at best) shooters like me in this scenario.....but I think it's important to guage the realities of your training...and their advantages...and be prepared to do something besides fighting back if you really dont have to (cuz alot of people here sound like they just 'want' to).

    True statements, in many regards. I'd just add that you are correct in your statement that I wouldn't just let the BG go if he got my wallet. I don't play, and he wasn't either when he aimed a DEADLY weapon at me (our scenario). HIS choice, turned into HIS last, and someone, somewhere, is not going to be another victim to his robbery and possible murder, later.
    Nope.....this SOB is going to pay, whether it be as he walks away, or 2 weeks later when I finally find him. But hey...That's me.


    Also, I agree with you that the BG may "see it coming", but you know what? It doesn't matter the training ANY of us has...
    The moment EVERY American starts standing up to these SOB'S, is perhaps, the moment they start thinking twice. The moment WE begin changing their mindset, through ours, a shift can take place. You know, BE the "change" you want to see kind of thing.

    My concern, is that we have enough people being sheep, and it's time to:
    1) Train as necessary; forcefully, intently, and with the thought that YOUR DEATH may just come from your actions, but DEATH will come with honor and not from one peeing themselves on the ground "hoping" this idiot doesn't shoot. Do we have that mentality? Apparently not, agreed. It's time to get it.
    2) Show these SOB'S we're done playing around.
    It doesn't take very much training to change a mindset (our own), and we all hopefully can realize that it's time to cease acting like shooting "paper" is actually getting us anywhere. It certainly helps, but yes you are correct, there are many more facets that must be incorporated for Self Defense.
    Train like you are going to die...because unfortunately, in many of these situations, you will.

    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  12. #116
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    Train like you are going to die...because unfortunately, in many of these situations, you will.

    but in most...statistically...you wont...

    how you choose to act/react is your choice and more power to you...trying to convince others its how we're going to change the world isnt necessarily going to help them...

    most are not trained to take an order that may compromise there life for a greater good as military personnel are...that mindset is a powerful one and apparently drives your civilian train of thought also...the facts are that facing a drawn weapon is dangerous...challenging it even more dangerous...the flip em the bird and die like a viking mentality is noble...and you have related it that way (die with pride)...but it still ends in death...and probably in that same puddle of pee...

    i am not saying there are not situations where fighting would be better than laying down...but making it a requirement because someone is stripping you of something you would like to keep whether it be your dignity or your credit cards might not feel like such a good idea when the last thing that goes through your mind is whos gonna take care of your kids as things grow dark...

    this isnt a testosterone fest...everyone has to look at whats happening and make a decision that is best for them...in many cases the decision to fight when no fight may be necessary isnt going to be the right one for them...

    and i hope if it is necessary it works out for you....or me...or anyone who decides thats the way to go...

  13. #117
    Member Array twocan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    Says who, you?

    Listen.....We can posture all day long here in an "internet" thread about "what if's".

    MY position, based on MY actions, and MY service in the military, dictates that *I* will not allow said SOB to hold my life nor my family's life in HIS hands. It really is, that simple.

    To state flatly, that "You are not going to out-draw a drawn weapon", is an assumption on your part, is it not? There are many factors that are employed in a combat/hostile situation including movement, eye contact (or non-eye contact), and even something as simple as using NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) to avoid/change/alter/disguise/distort/manipulate the situation at hand.

    However, there ARE techniques that humans fall for, and advantages are effectively used in this realm. Is that the "be all end all"? Naaaaah. But it's that training, and the training many practice instead of shooting at a piece of paper in a stationary position over and over, that "can" make the difference and "can" bring you home. Ahh, I'm rambling...

    As others have stated, human beings don't always fall for the "throw the wallet in the air and weeeeee he goes to catch it and drops his gun and..."
    Human beings don't also always take your wallet when you give it to them, and with a wink and a nod, walk off into the sunset with your life intact. THIS.....is the fine line I'm not willing to play around with. THIS...is where a decision must be made, and an action taken. I'm not going to toy around with the idea in my head about "Oh gosh, I hope he doesn't shoot me or my family". He's going to pay for HIS actions, on that day, and it's not going to be pretty. I don't carry a deadly weapon for any other reason than knowing full well that I will HAVE to use...it. Forcefully.

    Some here, take the position that they will comply, and I am perfectly fine with that. I "may" comply at the moment, and training and experience would dictate my actions at the time of the incident. My statements in no way indicate that I would "each and every time" pull a Clint Eastwood/Jackie Chan move if this situation arose.

    My point....again...is that these scumbags do NOT deserve acting like all is well, and assuming they won't shoot me anyway if I give them my wallet. It's simply not reality, and the odds unfortunately don't favor those who trust these idiots. I have seen enough, and been through enough, to trust no one on planet earth with the moniker of "human" attached to them. I simply do not trust someone who has ALREADY pulled a DEADLY weapon on me, or that that they will simply move on and "just" rob someone else later on.
    I, as others, have trained for these actions, and again, I simply am not going to put up with it.

    You may read about me, but noone will ever read about YOU, or anyone else, regarding the same individual. He may get my wallet, for the moment, but he will also get lead, firepower, and the complete hell on earth and fury that he's never seen before nor ever will see again. He's not going home to Momma'.
    Yes Sir:

    You have my vote.

    And, thank you for your service.

    Capt. Art

  14. #118
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    but in most...statistically...you wont...

    how you choose to act/react is your choice and more power to you...trying to convince others its how we're going to change the world isnt necessarily going to help them...
    No one is trying to "convince" others. Hell, give the guy your wallet.
    OR....it's really your choice. I personally, ceased thinking he HAS a choice, once he pointed a weapon at ME.



    most are not trained to take an order that may compromise there life for a greater good as military personnel are...that mindset is a powerful one and apparently drives your civilian train of thought also...the facts are that facing a drawn weapon is dangerous...challenging it even more dangerous...the flip em the bird and die like a viking mentality is noble...and you have related it that way (die with pride)...but it still ends in death...and probably in that same puddle of pee...
    Oh I certainly agree. ;-)
    My point is , that mindset doesn't necessarily need/have to be attained by the "military". Are we, as civilians, going to simply carry a weapon to just carry it? Or, should we be facing the reality that the BG's have the kind of mentality that we need to step up to and recognize...

    Yep, and the SAME SOB that KILLS you, will LIVE to kill again, and possibly again, and again....until enough sheep wake up to the fact that THEY have the mentality that many of us don't have the balls to accept, and DEMAND of ourselves. Hence, my overall point.

    i am not saying there are not situations where fighting would be better than laying down...but making it a requirement because someone is stripping you of something you would like to keep whether it be your dignity or your credit cards might not feel like such a good idea when the last thing that goes through your mind is whos gonna take care of your kids as things grow dark...
    Everyone's different, and I'm not making it a "requirement" by stating the reality that:
    1) These are MY thoughts, and actions, and
    2) Doing the same thing, over and over again, (ahh screw it, give em' the wallet), and expecting a "different" result, is...insanity. These "BG's", have already made a decision, and until you or I, or others stand up and face headstrong up to their mentality, they will continue to do so; to a mother, a grandfather, a 15 yr old student, a....
    My choice, whether it's right or wrong, or leads to death or not, is based purely on MY actions. As for my kids? I would rather have my son (he's 11), see his Father go in honor, for a purpose higher than myself, than to perhaps tell me at dinner one night 6 months down the road, "hey Dad, remember that guy that robbed us, well he robbed an old lady and her husband and killed them both". I'm not going to be able to look my son very easily in the eye after KNOWING what we both KNOW. Is that stubborn? Is it more "honorable" to "live" that way? Not for me.
    But again....Our lives, in MY opinion, are based on things BIGGER than...ourselves. I'm ok....with that.
    And, as reference again, I don't expect everyone else to feel, react, or be that way.

    this isnt a testosterone fest...everyone has to look at whats happening and make a decision that is best for them...in many cases the decision to fight when no fight may be necessary isnt going to be the right one for them...
    I've never advocated a testosterone fest nor fighting if not needed, I have consistently made the case that these are MY thoughts, and MY actions. I have likewise stated that others may comply, and yes I "may" comply at the moment, as well. Please stop reading so much into this..... Some may decide that the SOB doesn't need to be reminded of hell and fury when they point a DEADLY weapon at them. That, simply...is not ME, though. I think I've been quite consistent on that.

    and i hope if it is necessary it works out for you....or me...or anyone who decides thats the way to go...
    Agreed
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  15. #119
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    TheoryRealm well said. If others cant figure this out, then there is no point preaching to them. Well stated.

  16. #120
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    Multiple posts have been removed, keep it civil.

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