Robbed at gunpoint, Fight or Comply?
This is a discussion on Robbed at gunpoint, Fight or Comply? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Dang TheoryRealm Bravo Bravo !!
That's something I've been wondering myself... why carry a weapon if when faced with one you'd rather not use it ...
View Poll Results: Robbed at gunpoint - Fight or comply?
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March 11th, 2010 01:40 AM
Dang TheoryRealm Bravo Bravo !!
That's something I've been wondering myself... why carry a weapon if when faced with one you'd rather not use it because the BG could "let you live" or whatever it is that some of you are trying to say?
Like TheoryRealm said, after the BG pulls a gun on me it's not up to him anymore, it's time for him to realize that he's playing the wrong lotto and his number is a winner. It has gotten to the point where it seems that having someone pulling a gun on you doesn't mean he's ready to kill you... necessarily. Even if he is not ready, he is advertising to you that he is by pointing that gun at you. And if he's ready to take my life, I'll be ready to take his, if the opportunity presents itself. A wise man once said that by pulling a gun on someone, "you are forcing that person to make a choice: Either trust you with their life or draw and fire immediately. It is rude to force that choice on another person. It is also deadly dangerous" (for both parties, which is why the situation is so dire.)
Defending property is important to me too, but it's not about the property. It's about standing up for what's right, fighting what's wrong. If BG's would get shot a little more often maybe they would consider filling out a job application somewhere instead of feeding off of those who have and bust their working for what they have.
Either way, by the time our interaction is coming to a close he is going to be doing this = and then this if at all possible (and so may I, or anyone else in this type scenario, but by carrying a pistol I've already embraced that fact). I think it would take a borderline professionally trained stickup man to not flinch and hesitate if you threw your wallet, (or anything else) and hit him a good square lick in the face, because he will flinch (everyone has reflexes, and maybe he will instinctively squeeze and get one off, but by the time he has reanalyzed the situation you should have already planned or started initiating your next action) and that could buy you the time you need to duck left or right, draw and point and shoot.
Besides, they will be reacting to your stimulus then and average reaction time to a simple stimulus (seeing a light, pressing a button) is about a quarter of a second, but in a more complex situation, with more variables, the time for response increases dramatically, giving you an advantage over the BG. Based on Kosinski, R. J. (2008). A literature review on reaction time, Clemson University. Also, there is an overall tendency for individuals with higher IQ to be slightly faster on reaction time tests. This is based on Deary, I. J., Der, G., & Ford, G. (2001). Reaction times and intelligence differences: A population-based cohort study where they found a weak association between simple reaction time and intelligence , and a moderate association between choice reaction time and intelligence This relationship may be due to more efficient information processing or better attentional resources in more intelligent people. This could net another quarter of a second or more.
Waiting to see if he will pull the trigger or not is a game I don't want to play. I'd rather make a good distraction and give it my best than do everything right, give him everything he wants, and realize this is a gang initiation and he is going to kill me anyway. What's worse than dying? Dying with a loaded, unused gun strapped to your hip, or going down without a fight, at least it seems so to me. I'd rather flip them the bird and die like a viking than let a kill me, take my stuff and then what happens if my girl was with me?
You all can say what you want, but letting the BG walk is the biggest part of the problem. What's their incentive not to rob people if they don't get resistance (especially if they don't even get resistance from those who arm themselves in preparation for this type of a situation)?!? It's time people stood up and let the BG's know that we're mad as hell and not going to take it anymore!
Another good point that I was thinking throughout the whole thread was what's going to happen to the next guy this thug comes across while driving your car or after he's bought another hot gun with the cash out of your wallet or uses your BUG that is in your car?
Someone's gotta stop these guys and it's not going to be the police for the most part.. they'll still be taking down some information while at the same time the same BG is down the street robbing someone else.
I'm not trying to say anyone is stupid or anything, because they are the ones who must ultimately decide what decision will be (not necessarily) best for them, I'm just saying like the others that I'll make my own decisions. My situation is probably different from most of you anyway since I am only 19 and cannot CC in NC.
No point in carrying one if you aren't going to try your absolute best to use it when threatened with deadly force.
And like others have said, a little SA goes a long way in avoiding/pre-planning for this scenario.
March 11th, 2010 02:45 AM
The problem I have with the "comply at first and only fight if necessary" is that your best chance to fight is likely to be at the very beginning of the encounter. Lets say just hand him your wallet. His attention is split between you, your companion(s), your wallet etc. Maybe you're odds at this point are only 50/50 but once he has your wallet and he's asking you to pull up your shirt to see what else you've got then all his attention is going to be on your hands and belt area. It seems to me your odds of successfully fighting back at this point are much worse than they were just a few seconds ago. So now he's got your gun and says to turn around and get on your knees. It seems like everyone here says they'd fight then but how? He already knows you're a threat because he found your gun a few seconds ago so he's watching more closely and he's backed up a step so he's no longer in h2h range. Those 50/50 odds you had at the beginning of the encounter are probably looking really good now.
March 11th, 2010 12:09 PM
with out reading all the responses, bottom line is no amount of money is worth dieing for.
You can replace you wallet, car, whatever but not your life.
Now that being said, all too often BG want no witnesses and will kill their victim!!! So many of us who carry also have a decoy wallet and keys, something you can toss off to the side where the BG is put at a distinct disadvantage to retrieve them, giving you time to act an any appropriate manner that will save your life.
"The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
March 11th, 2010 12:41 PM
it's dependent upon the circumstances. It's hard to say.
For instance, if someone walks up and pulls a gun and is nearly point blank, you've got a good chance of disarmed, or using your own gun to kill them.
If someone walks up and pulls a gun and is 5 feet away and never removes their gun from being pointed directly at you during the encounter, it's in your best interests just to give them what they want. If you can out draw someone who already has a gun trained on you, well then you probably didn't think it out and you're going to die....
Now, these are two basic scenarios. Things change rapidly during these situations, and moment to moment the ability to fight and survive will be in your favor, then change to a dire disadvantage in the blink of an eye.
Abiding by a blanket operating procedure will likely get you killed. You need to be fluid, dynamic, and react accordingly, then if possible, act.
March 11th, 2010 12:47 PM
Humans like any other cornered animal will fight if escape is not possible. They will naturally attempt to escape if they can. I don't think it warrants a response. Your body just does it. We can't surpress our natural instincts.
March 11th, 2010 12:56 PM
It is hard to fight when you are caught by suprise and and BG already has his gun drawn. It will take approx 3 seconds for you to reach for your firearm and draw and then fire and if the BG has his gun pointed on you then your going to get shot before you can draw your weapon. I think everyone wants to fight in a situation like this but remember material items are not worth your life, if the chance presents itself and you can safely draw and fire without getting shot first then I say fight but if your being held at gunpoint and can not safely draw without the bg seeing you make a move for your firearm then let him have the items.
March 11th, 2010 02:02 PM
Take wallet and throw it on the ground just past the bad guy on his weak side. When he goes for it, fill him with lead
"How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of." -Suzanna Gratia Hupp
March 11th, 2010 04:35 PM
All of you heros (well 99%) of you need to go get a little training and LEARN just how long it takes you to move 3-4 feet, draw a fully concealed weapon and fire. On the movie screen its about .75 seconds. In the real world its 3-4 seconds. Unless you BG is a totally idiot, and some of them are and you might get lucky, you are going to get SHOT. Even if you get your gun out, the odds of him getting a couple of shots of is very very good. I know, you are are super tough "do the right thing or die" kinda guys and I hope that works out for you. How is that going to work out for you when the shot he fires hits your spouse or child? How about the woman behind you walking by.
All of this hero crap is awsome on the internet. I suspect some of you need to get a little age on you and get some wisdom in you. Having someone get the drop on you sucks, but sometimes the reality of it is, they got the drop on you. Period.
There are situations in which it is possible to defend yourself against a drawn gun, to start with, the BG has to be dumb enough to be close to you. If it is nt his first day, he is going to have sense enough to stand out of your reach. If he is within reach, you have a much better chance of disarming him H2H, than you do drawing and shooting him. Take some classes, get some training and good luck to all of you.
You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
March 11th, 2010 07:20 PM
Now days, they are going to strip you any way and when they find out you have a gun, lights out. So, get offline, and squeeze and pray, barring its just you and you alone. Also, if it comes down to h2h, you are sunk anyway because it is way out of control now. The best advice is, know whats going on up, down, below and all around and use, the best weapon ever created. Your brains...
Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....
March 12th, 2010 12:23 AM
I would highly agree. Under Ideal circumstances, it takes the brain anywhere from .25-.75 seconds to recognize a threat. Another .25-.5 seconds for the brain to send a message to the hand to reach for the gun. Another .25 - 1 seconds to draw your gun (depends a lot on skill level and training), another .25 to aim, and another .25 to press the trigger. Add up the times and you see it takes a lot longer than you think.
Originally Posted by tpurdin
I've trained extensively for years on getting the proper stance, draw, and aim point and the best I can do with a level 2 holster(no retention, just a top strap that is pushed out of the way with my thumb) is just around 1 second. That's one shot from 3 yards, center mass. That's sounds fast, but that's under ideal circumstances. Most of us that carry IWB are going to be much, much slower than that. If your range permits, see how fast you can shoot with your gun carrying IWB or OWB. Make sure you dress like you normally would. You'd be surprised. After many repetitions, your times would go down, but maybe not enough.
You have to ask yourself, are my material possessions worth more than my life? Now if you are faced with a situation that someone is trying to kidnap your wife or kids, that's entirely different.
Besides, there's nothing to say you couldn't draw your gun after he robs you of your wallet (being that he never saw your gun). You would then have the upper hand and the drop on him!
Another factor to consider is your own skill level. Some of us have had numerous years of hand to hand combat or martial arts. Depending on the positioning of the suspect and how the gun is pointed at you might leave an opening for you to strike. Distraction is another factor to consider as well. Maybe you could yell "there's the cops" causing him to momentarily look away thus giving you a moment to push him back or move, draw and shoot.
Hopefully, none of us will be put in that situation. God Bless...
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same."
- Ronald Reagan
March 12th, 2010 12:40 AM
There is no correct answer for this question. Every situation is different. Too different to give a one size fits all answer to it.
You just have to go with the situation and make your decision and hope like hell you and other innocents around you come out alive regardless of what happens to the bad guy.
March 12th, 2010 11:04 AM
i wondered if you would involve yourself in this discussion...with all that youve been through it cant be easy to do...spoken by someone with a real world experience and survival by compliance it bears some weight...
Originally Posted by tpurdin
thank you and best wishes with your current challenges sir...i certainly do hope justice prevails in your situation and i'm glad it has worked out well so far...
March 12th, 2010 12:53 PM
If I think the odds are better fighting than complying, I fight.
Originally Posted by Cycler
If he's three feet away from me, I'd be thinking really hard about the odds of disarming him. Three feet is close. If he's three feet away, and he has the gun pointing at my face the gun is only inches from my nose, and he's in exactly the position used to train for two standard disarm techniques.
The downside - if you try to disarm him, the probability that the gun will discharge is nearly 100%. That round is going to go *somewhere*. And I probably get to exercise only limited choice about where it goes.
You all *have* taken a course in handgun retention and disarm techniques, right?
March 12th, 2010 02:27 PM
I have a son and a husband. If a robber has a gun out he's already made the choice that my life is worthless. He'll kill me to avoid going to jail for stealing a little cash or a car. If I comply I've lost already.
I have a lot to go home too. The chance of winning and going home( or going to a hospital then home) is better.
March 12th, 2010 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by aric
If the robber has a gun out...how are you going to fight? How perfect is your draw? How perfect is your facial expression when you attempt to distract him by ????
Have you trained in h2h?
I have been enclosed in close quarters situations with writhing, panicking 1200 lb beasts. To save others, I remained....and my hands fumbled knots and buckles and straps that I can do and undo in my sleep. Even when I had the perfect opportunity to undo them.
I have practiced drawing from my purse and from holster...and I still fumble the easiest thumb release in IDPA practice sometimes.
God Bless people who think they can...and should...draw down on a drawn gun. I will only do so if I truly believe they mean to shoot me after...and the statistics show that most do not.
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
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