How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question) - Page 3

How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question)

This is a discussion on How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This points out yet another reason why to carry loaded with hollow points. Takes less rounds to stop a threat than when using FMJ's....

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Thread: How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question)

  1. #31
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    Array GunnyBunny's Avatar
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    This points out yet another reason why to carry loaded with hollow points.

    Takes less rounds to stop a threat than when using FMJ's.
    CCW permit holder for Idaho, Utah, Pennsylvania, Maine and New Hampshire. I can carry in your country but not my own.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Array Bob O's Avatar
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    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Array Lewis128's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    In my military training we are taught to neutralize the threat (Which I translated to civilian terms as anything to win a fight) IE, why I have a light a laser attached to my G23 IOT make the BG quit (I hope) before I have to use deadly force.
    I think this part has been over-looked in this thread, so far.
    Do not use a laser sight for that purpose.
    To borrow from a popular movie quote: If you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk about it. And don't stand there waiving a damn laser at him.

    BTW, thank you!

  4. #34
    Member Array happydude's Avatar
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    Whatever it takes to stop the threat.

  5. #35
    Member Array Bkrazy's Avatar
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    When I instructed MOUT classes I would tell my students to "Kill the target until it is dead". I dont believe the same applies in the civilian world. If I was to teach a civilian class it might go like this "Shoot the threat until it is no more". That may still be too harsh for some of the liberals, but it is as close to politically correct as a self defense situation will ever be. Controlled pair, reassess over the top of the still aimed pistol, controlled pair would seem to be a good practice. When one is shooting because they fear for their life, they are going to resort to whatever training they have had. Some people will have no training and will dump the whole magazine without thinking twice and will probably only hit the threat a few times. Others will place well aimed shots because they have basic fundamentals instilled in them and will eliminate the threat faster. As has been said by others shoot until the threat is gone, whether that is 1 round or 22 it will be determined by you, the one who is threatened.

    12smile- I believe you are asking for trouble by shooting the threat once it is down. It sounds like a great plan and looks cool in movies, but I am 98% sure it would land you in jail or find you paying huge bucks outta your pocket after a civil suit is filed. Just think about the BGs testimony in court " Once he shot me I saw the error of my ways and envisioned a life of working hard and earning my money, but then he shot me again and now I am permanently handicapped and will be unable to provide a legitimate income to support my family (sniff, sniff, wipe tear)"
    Last edited by Bkrazy; March 14th, 2010 at 10:31 AM.

  6. #36
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    Everything comes down to testIFYING in court, if you fire your weapon five times... then your accountable for why each bullet/projectile was fired and where it hits. Good Luck.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    Oneshot, Thanks for your response. I just don't want to underestimate the power of stupid people IE lawyers and gun fearing idiots. I know a guy who lost his CCW for getting into a shooting in CA (gun haters). He was a Special Forces guy who shot the guy twice in the chest, the DA said because he was a highly trained to use firearms that he he should have shot him in the shoulder or something, even though the BG had a knife on the guys wife.
    A good lawyer should have been able to successfully defend it by asserting that because of his high degree of Special Forces training, the two to the chest was a muscle memory trained response that was ingrained in him through years of specialized weapons and marksmanship training. It was a specialized and trained automatic response with a sidearm to a justifiable lethal threat.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    After a self defense shooting I'm guessing most folks wouldn't be able to remember how many rounds they fired. If you truly are in fear of your life I would expect that all rounds would be expended into the bad guy. If you re-loaded and continued to shoot when the bad guy was down then you might have a problem.
    I seriously doubt a DA would try to make an issue out of how many rounds were fired by a civilian in a situation where there was a clear bad guy vs good guy scenario and the good guy emptied his gun in a couple of seconds.

    Before anyone posts a story about how this actually happened, I'm not talking about a domestic dispute situation, or some other situation with extenuating circumstances. I'm talking about bad guy breaks into home, gas station robbery, etc.

    My instructor always told me it would be better for you when the cops rolled up if you were standing there in a trance pulling the trigger over and over on an empty cylinder!

  9. #39
    Member Array Fenris's Avatar
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    One problem with giving your entire magazine to the BG, is that you have nothing left to give his friend.

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    I don't post here anymore...Sorry
    Quote Originally Posted by 12smile View Post
    that If the guy is down a shot in the foot or knee is lesser use of force than a few more in the chest which may be the temptation in the heat of the moment.

    If an Aluminum baseball bat were laying next to the downed may think of holstering and bashing him in the knees w/ the bat a few times before you considered the threat "stopped"
    If this is what you are thinking, get some training from a reputable source that will teach you about use of force laws.

    That post of yours litteraly frightens me that you are walking around in public with a loaded gun.
    Last edited by pgrass101; March 15th, 2010 at 01:25 PM. Reason: Removed personal comments

  11. #41
    Member Array Bandolero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmark340 View Post
    link to article quoted above:
    “Excessive” shots and falling assailants: A fresh look at OIS subtleties

    Most of my courses and the one at the police academy stressed two shots COM, low ready, evaluate the threat and be prepared for a failure to stop drill. However, more and more, I am seeing classes being taught that advise multiple shots to COM until the target goes down and is no longer a threat (just because he goes down does not mean he is still a threat). The philosophy here is that the handgun cartridge is generally underpowered for the task and, absent a CNS hit, can't let enough blood out to shut down the threat soon enough if it is close. In addition, making head shots on a moving target can be unreliable. Therefore, put as many shots on target as possible in the shortest amount of time. I'm not sure I fully subscribe to the theory yet but have a certain sympathy for it, especially since the self-defense could be taking place under circumstances in which you might not know, or be sure, that you even hit your target to begin with. If he is still up and coming, AOJ applies so keep shooting. Bottom line, its a facts and circumstances test but the people that grade it will be doing it from the luxury of their easy chairs, not scrambling around in the gutter with you.
    I like your synopsis of the situation.

    They will also likely look at the scenario of a police force hunting down a cop killer as quite different than a CCW civilian emptying all 17rounds of his Glock 17 into a knife wielding teen at a gas station pump.

  12. #42
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    I read somewhere once that the average person that gets into a gun fight for there first time does not think at all and emptys every round they have and continue to dry fire for several second because the adrenalin takes over your brain and tells you to run or fight you chose fight so your body does the rest for you so in order to really say you would just double tap you would probably have to be trained and have been in a real situation to be able to control your emotions. just a thought on some stats i read once. we can all dump 100 of rounds at a paper target but untill there is a pulse in the paper its not the same.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12smile View Post
    I practice shooting 4 shots as fast as possible, then pause. I'm carrying a .380 when I get the glock 30...I won't change that just to be consistent.

    What if the first shot kills him...the other three don't matter, right?

    Also I do visualize walking up to a downed perp and putting one in each kneecap or ankle. not lethal but "insurance"
    Quote Originally Posted by 12smile View Post
    I am thinking that If the guy is down a shot in the foot or knee is lesser use of force than a few more in the chest which may be the temptation in the heat of the moment.

    If an Aluminum baseball bat were laying next to the downed may think of holstering and bashing him in the knees w/ the bat a few times before you considered the threat "stopped"

    Hopefully just the tone of my voice will be the only weapon I need.

    These two posts have to rate somewhere on the top 5 dumbest things I've ever read on this forum, seriously you NEED to refamiliarize yourself with use of force/use of force continuum.

    If the threat is down and IS NO LONGER a threat, you cease action other than covering the threat. IF aggressions continue, you may act to defend yourself, but knee capping/beating with a bat is a no-go. How that can even enter one's mind as a good idea is beyond me.

    Please, please look into a Judicious Use of Deadly Force class or some other class that will at least touch on these subjects. The $400ish you'll spend will save you some serious legal trouble. And you are in obvious need of schooling on the matter.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array Rustynuts's Avatar
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    There's no rule that says someone laying down isn't a threat. He could easily still move to fire if he has a gun. So there should be no qualms about shooting again, if need be, just because someone is on the ground.

    As to training with pre-conceived shot counts, LEO have DIED doing this. Popping two into the BG and automatically holstering, just like they did at the range. BG then shoots back. People have been killed with shot up hearts, yet still continue to function for several seconds after "death" running only on adrenaline.

    As the saying goes "Do NOT shoot until you think he's dead, KEEP shooting until HE thinks he's dead"

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array KevinDooley's Avatar
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    With the little training I've had, the instructor told us more than once - "Fire until the target falls off the front sight, and then assess the situation." Basically once he's down, assess what's going on. If he's still trying to fight, neutralize the threat. If he's lying there, bleeding out, regretting he messed with you... keep him covered and call the cops.

    To even think about, let alone verbalizing in a public forum, the excessive force to a downed and non-threatening opponent to "teach him his lesson" or to "teach him to stay down" is downright absurd. Yes, there's a pride in all of us that says, "How dare he attack me," but rub your two brain cells together before you act on that impulse - and certainly don't feed it by fantasizing how you would hurt him in that situation.
    Last edited by HotGuns; March 15th, 2010 at 10:45 PM. Reason: language workaround
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