March 15th, 2010 09:05 PM
There is no way, at least in any autopsies I've seen, where it was ever determinable which shot killed the person. Whether it was the first shot, or the 25th. So, to say it was "over-kill" because they were shot 4 times, are you so sure the 4th wasn't "the one" that stopped them ? How would you know ? No-one performing an autopsy can tell you either.
Not shooting after they are down ? Are some of you guys serious ? You think just because someone hits the ground they are going to quit shooting at YOU ?
Many times the person on the ground will keep shooting.... many cases both of LEO's and BG's on the ground wounded and still taking out the other person.
March 15th, 2010 09:16 PM
[QUOTE=Rustynuts;1540055]There's no rule that says someone laying down isn't a threat. He could easily still move to fire if he has a gun. So there should be no qualms about shooting again, if need be, just because someone is on the ground.
I agree with the fact that a downed bad guy could be a threat. I was asking in the civilian world what would be considered to much. I've trained with specialized units of the military to fire fire two controled rounds to center mass then reevaluate the threat. If it's still a treat reengage with 2 more. If its still a threat go with head shots. But Ive heard in some states such as CA, MA, NY and such this could be conceared obsessive force.
March 15th, 2010 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by kelcarry
I'm usually very suspicious of such fantastically cool and classic quotes, but this quote was right on:
snopes.com: Sheriff Judd's Comments
March 16th, 2010 04:32 AM
As long as someone poses an imminent threat of death or severe injury, continue firing.
Once they no longer pose such a threat, cease fire as soon as possible, make sure there are no other attackers, and contact police if you haven't already.
NEVER knowingly attack someone who does not pose such a threat, such as 'shooting in the knee' or whatever. This is just ridiculous. In a SD situation you need to do everything you can to get the law on your side, and things like this could radically turn things against you.
If you think you should shoot someone in the leg to 'teach them a lesson' or 'just to be sure', I think you have the wrong attitude about carry. An attitude of using your CC in retaliation is completely opposed to what most CCers stand for. Good people don't seek revenge through force.
"Trust in God with hand on sword"
-Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately.
March 16th, 2010 04:35 AM
Originally Posted by GWRedDragon
Bernard Goetz didn't fare well in court with this strategy. He was acquitted, but the DA came at him with "both guns blazing," so to speak, for what had appeared to be punishment and "extra" rounds fired at the scene. Such a tactic can end up being very expensive, irrespective of whether you feel it's right or wrong.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
March 16th, 2010 04:42 AM
I dont think anyone was saying to not shoot the THREAT when it is down, but to not shoot a BG if he is down and no longer a THREAT. I could be wrong though.
March 16th, 2010 10:20 AM
If you have time to prep a fresh belt and change out the overheated barrel, the threat is probably over.
March 16th, 2010 11:49 AM
Actually in the heat of the moment continuing to fire once the bad guy is down OR turns to flee is indeed a very real possibility. Once you decide to shoot and the adrenilin is pumping most people either experience a "slow motion" or even "out of body" feeling.
Originally Posted by C9H13NO3
There are many cases where what the shooter was sure was the actual order of events that were proven wrong by forensics or video cameras.
We as responsible gun owners need to mentally prepare ourselves to;
1. Shoot only when absolutely neccessary.
2. SHOOT when neccessary.
3 Be aware of others in the line of fire and not shoot if not able to do so safely.
3. Stop shooting once the threat is down or turns to flee! (Correct this to read Stop shooting once the threat is over. Down could still be a threat. If they are down but still holding their gun or trying to regain it keep shooting.
Last edited by TedBeau; March 16th, 2010 at 12:15 PM.
Reason: Corrected item 4.
March 16th, 2010 11:50 AM
The NYPD did a study about a year after switching from revolvers to semi-autos, and it revealed that officers fired more rounds in similar type shootings with the higher capacity magazine than previously with revolvers. This notion that training will govern our instinct to survive is a pure fantasy.
“Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
~ Stephen King
March 16th, 2010 12:09 PM
Ding Ding Ding
Originally Posted by ArPacker
We have a winner!
March 16th, 2010 12:30 PM
How many shots fired is too many? Any number of shots fired after there is no longer a threat to your life.
March 16th, 2010 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by cuban11182
Things can be and often are per real world incidents quite fluid.
Originally Posted by SamRudolph
One moment you are run up on by Deebo and he has you pinched by threat of a strong arm robbery.
Next thing he and you both know, your hand appears to hold lightening at your command.
You both hear thunder claps. One, two, three...He falters and turns to flee.
Your conscious brain 'sees' him running away beating feet as into the distance.
Nothing there but his back or even front, as he backpedals & stumbles clearly trying to put space between you, the lightening and himself.
But you keep on firing, anyway...And in the space of one bullet transfer from becoming the aggressed to aggressor. : |
It can and does happen that quick.
You gotta stay on your toes mentally and work to contain your emotion in the immediate. Easier said than done but none the less remains a necessity.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
March 16th, 2010 01:35 PM
That sounds about right. We shoot to neutralize (i.e., "stop") the threat, which doesn't necessarily require killing.
Originally Posted by skysoldier29
I disagree with your translation. In civilian terms, it translates as "stop the threat." Excessive force doesn't require "too many" shots. Any use of deadly force might be viewed as excessive, depending on the circumstances. In fact, any use of violent force, including bare hands, after the threat is neutralized, might be deemed excessive.
... (Which I translated to civilian terms as anything to win a fight)
This sounds like choosing a pump action shotgun in hopes that the sound of cycling the action will deter the BG. You cycle the action to load the shotgun, period. You use a laser sight system to aim your weapon, period.
... IE, why I have a light a laser attached to my G23 IOT make the BG quit (I hope) before I have to use deadly force.
Controlled pairs are commonly taught in civilian defensive pistol courses, too. Honestly, if you've been trained to use controlled pairs, repeating as necessary to neutralize the threat to yourself, then you are in pretty good shape, assuming the situation requires deadly force.
...My training had taught me to fire two controlled but rapid shots to center mass, reevaluate and continue to engage if there is still a threat of loss of life or injury.
Civilians train controlled pairs all the time, to the point that it almost becomes a single act. I wouldn't be worrying about the use of one shot versus two in a situation that requires deadly force. I would be more concerned about the judgement, in the civilian world, that deadly force is required. Making that call is likely to be the element that receives the most scrutiny.
...I was told that in North Carolina where I will be carrying since I’m stationed at Fort Bragg could get me into legal trouble as multiple shots could be over kill.
How a lawyer will characterize your actions, and how a jury will interpret your actions, are beyond your control even under the best of circumstances. You don't have any way of knowing or predicting that. All you can do is do your best to stay within the law, wherever you are, and use your best judgement to apply the least amount of force necessary to neutralize the threat, up to and including deadly force.
Originally Posted by skysoldier29
March 16th, 2010 04:42 PM
Sorta goes along with what one of my teachers asked in a CJ class. He asked why some officers shot someone 23 times, I replied "Because they didn't have to shoot him 24 times" Most of the class didn't get it. Shoot to eliminate the threat. That being said, when I got my CPL the instructor said to shoot with a quick follow-up.
Originally Posted by kelcarry
Kel-Tec P-11, Supertuck Deluxe, Wilderness Tactical Original Instructor's Belt
March 17th, 2010 04:39 AM
Shoot until subject is dead. Then 2 through the brains to make sure they don't turn zombie.
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