How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question) - Page 4

How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question)

This is a discussion on How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There is no way, at least in any autopsies I've seen, where it was ever determinable which shot killed the person. Whether it was the ...

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Thread: How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question)

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    There is no way, at least in any autopsies I've seen, where it was ever determinable which shot killed the person. Whether it was the first shot, or the 25th. So, to say it was "over-kill" because they were shot 4 times, are you so sure the 4th wasn't "the one" that stopped them ? How would you know ? No-one performing an autopsy can tell you either.

    Not shooting after they are down ? Are some of you guys serious ? You think just because someone hits the ground they are going to quit shooting at YOU ?
    Many times the person on the ground will keep shooting.... many cases both of LEO's and BG's on the ground wounded and still taking out the other person.


  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array skysoldier29's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Rustynuts;1540055]There's no rule that says someone laying down isn't a threat. He could easily still move to fire if he has a gun. So there should be no qualms about shooting again, if need be, just because someone is on the ground.

    I agree with the fact that a downed bad guy could be a threat. I was asking in the civilian world what would be considered to much. I've trained with specialized units of the military to fire fire two controled rounds to center mass then reevaluate the threat. If it's still a treat reengage with 2 more. If its still a threat go with head shots. But Ive heard in some states such as CA, MA, NY and such this could be conceared obsessive force.

  3. #48
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Cuban said it all. The most famous quote/story on such a subject involves an incident where a perp "executed" an LEO and the hunt was on. When finally cornered, the ensuing shootout resulted in I believe 65 bullet holes in the perp. When asked why so many, the officer in charge said "because that was all we had". Bottom line IMO is that if you are in imminent danger of death or bodily injury that requires discharge of your weapon---then discharge your weapon.

    I'm usually very suspicious of such fantastically cool and classic quotes, but this quote was right on:

    snopes.com: Sheriff Judd's Comments

    -Bill

  4. #49
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    As long as someone poses an imminent threat of death or severe injury, continue firing.

    Once they no longer pose such a threat, cease fire as soon as possible, make sure there are no other attackers, and contact police if you haven't already.

    NEVER knowingly attack someone who does not pose such a threat, such as 'shooting in the knee' or whatever. This is just ridiculous. In a SD situation you need to do everything you can to get the law on your side, and things like this could radically turn things against you.

    If you think you should shoot someone in the leg to 'teach them a lesson' or 'just to be sure', I think you have the wrong attitude about carry. An attitude of using your CC in retaliation is completely opposed to what most CCers stand for. Good people don't seek revenge through force.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
    ---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
    ---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately. ---

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWRedDragon View Post
    If you think you should shoot someone in the leg to 'teach them a lesson' or 'just to be sure', I think you have the wrong attitude about carry. An attitude of using your CC in retaliation is completely opposed to what most CCers stand for. Good people don't seek revenge through force.
    Good advice.

    Bernard Goetz didn't fare well in court with this strategy. He was acquitted, but the DA came at him with "both guns blazing," so to speak, for what had appeared to be punishment and "extra" rounds fired at the scene. Such a tactic can end up being very expensive, irrespective of whether you feel it's right or wrong.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  6. #51
    Member Array Bkrazy's Avatar
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    I dont think anyone was saying to not shoot the THREAT when it is down, but to not shoot a BG if he is down and no longer a THREAT. I could be wrong though.

  7. #52
    Member Array kd5nrh's Avatar
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    If you have time to prep a fresh belt and change out the overheated barrel, the threat is probably over.

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C9H13NO3 View Post
    Interesting perspective rottkeeper...

    I've always figured just shoot until the threat is no longer present, so I believe I would be out of trouble easily enough, but I never thought about the forensics if you were to get caught in the heat of a gunfight and kept shooting. Had completely forgotten they can find out what angle every shot was taken from.
    Actually in the heat of the moment continuing to fire once the bad guy is down OR turns to flee is indeed a very real possibility. Once you decide to shoot and the adrenilin is pumping most people either experience a "slow motion" or even "out of body" feeling.
    There are many cases where what the shooter was sure was the actual order of events that were proven wrong by forensics or video cameras.
    We as responsible gun owners need to mentally prepare ourselves to;

    1. Shoot only when absolutely neccessary.
    2. SHOOT when neccessary.
    3 Be aware of others in the line of fire and not shoot if not able to do so safely.
    3. Stop shooting once the threat is down or turns to flee! (Correct this to read Stop shooting once the threat is over. Down could still be a threat. If they are down but still holding their gun or trying to regain it keep shooting.
    Last edited by TedBeau; March 16th, 2010 at 01:15 PM. Reason: Corrected item 4.

  9. #54
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    The NYPD did a study about a year after switching from revolvers to semi-autos, and it revealed that officers fired more rounds in similar type shootings with the higher capacity magazine than previously with revolvers. This notion that training will govern our instinct to survive is a pure fantasy.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArPacker View Post
    As my instructor for my ccw told us to tell the judge if we are ever involved in a SD shooting and the judge asks you "Why did you shoot him 9 times" your response better be : your honor 8 wasn't enough and 10 would have been too many
    Ding Ding Ding
    We have a winner!

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    How many shots fired is too many? Any number of shots fired after there is no longer a threat to your life.

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuban11182 View Post
    You shoot till the threat is over, then you STOP.
    Quote Originally Posted by SamRudolph View Post
    How many shots fired is too many? Any number of shots fired after there is no longer a threat to your life.
    Things can be and often are per real world incidents quite fluid.

    One moment you are run up on by Deebo and he has you pinched by threat of a strong arm robbery.

    Next thing he and you both know, your hand appears to hold lightening at your command.
    You both hear thunder claps. One, two, three...He falters and turns to flee.

    Your conscious brain 'sees' him running away beating feet as into the distance.
    Nothing there but his back or even front, as he backpedals & stumbles clearly trying to put space between you, the lightening and himself.

    But you keep on firing, anyway...And in the space of one bullet transfer from becoming the aggressed to aggressor. : |

    It can and does happen that quick.
    You gotta stay on your toes mentally and work to contain your emotion in the immediate. Easier said than done but none the less remains a necessity.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #58
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    ...Question: How many shots is too many?

    In my military training we are taught to neutralize the threat
    That sounds about right. We shoot to neutralize (i.e., "stop") the threat, which doesn't necessarily require killing.
    ... (Which I translated to civilian terms as anything to win a fight)
    I disagree with your translation. In civilian terms, it translates as "stop the threat." Excessive force doesn't require "too many" shots. Any use of deadly force might be viewed as excessive, depending on the circumstances. In fact, any use of violent force, including bare hands, after the threat is neutralized, might be deemed excessive.
    ... IE, why I have a light a laser attached to my G23 IOT make the BG quit (I hope) before I have to use deadly force.
    This sounds like choosing a pump action shotgun in hopes that the sound of cycling the action will deter the BG. You cycle the action to load the shotgun, period. You use a laser sight system to aim your weapon, period.
    ...My training had taught me to fire two controlled but rapid shots to center mass, reevaluate and continue to engage if there is still a threat of loss of life or injury.
    Controlled pairs are commonly taught in civilian defensive pistol courses, too. Honestly, if you've been trained to use controlled pairs, repeating as necessary to neutralize the threat to yourself, then you are in pretty good shape, assuming the situation requires deadly force.
    ...I was told that in North Carolina where I will be carrying since I’m stationed at Fort Bragg could get me into legal trouble as multiple shots could be over kill.
    Civilians train controlled pairs all the time, to the point that it almost becomes a single act. I wouldn't be worrying about the use of one shot versus two in a situation that requires deadly force. I would be more concerned about the judgement, in the civilian world, that deadly force is required. Making that call is likely to be the element that receives the most scrutiny.
    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    ...I just don't want to underestimate the power of stupid people IE lawyers and gun fearing idiots...
    How a lawyer will characterize your actions, and how a jury will interpret your actions, are beyond your control even under the best of circumstances. You don't have any way of knowing or predicting that. All you can do is do your best to stay within the law, wherever you are, and use your best judgement to apply the least amount of force necessary to neutralize the threat, up to and including deadly force.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  14. #59
    Member Array chains1240's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Cuban said it all. The most famous quote/story on such a subject involves an incident where a perp "executed" an LEO and the hunt was on. When finally cornered, the ensuing shootout resulted in I believe 65 bullet holes in the perp. When asked why so many, the officer in charge said "because that was all we had". Bottom line IMO is that if you are in imminent danger of death or bodily injury that requires discharge of your weapon---then discharge your weapon.
    Sorta goes along with what one of my teachers asked in a CJ class. He asked why some officers shot someone 23 times, I replied "Because they didn't have to shoot him 24 times" Most of the class didn't get it. Shoot to eliminate the threat. That being said, when I got my CPL the instructor said to shoot with a quick follow-up.
    Kel-Tec P-11, Supertuck Deluxe, Wilderness Tactical Original Instructor's Belt

  15. #60
    Member Array Ronny's Avatar
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    Shoot until subject is dead. Then 2 through the brains to make sure they don't turn zombie.

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