How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question)

This is a discussion on How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Ronny Shoot until subject is dead. Then 2 through the brains to make sure they don't turn zombie. Darnit, I forgot all ...

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Thread: How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question)

  1. #61
    Member Array chains1240's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronny View Post
    Shoot until subject is dead. Then 2 through the brains to make sure they don't turn zombie.
    Darnit, I forgot all about that one. Hehe
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  3. #62
    Member Array proliance's Avatar
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    You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to survive.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    A good lawyer should have been able to successfully defend it by asserting that because of his high degree of Special Forces training, the two to the chest was a muscle memory trained response that was ingrained in him through years of specialized weapons and marksmanship training. It was a specialized and trained automatic response with a sidearm to a justifiable lethal threat.
    This was my thought; he was trained to double tap; I would have a problem if he did not follow his training; but then again I am trained as an EMT and SOP's are what I was taught to follow. In his case and yours SOP is to double tap and re-asses the threat.
    [QUOTE=skysoldier29;1540176]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustynuts View Post
    There's no rule that says someone laying down isn't a threat. He could easily still move to fire if he has a gun. So there should be no qualms about shooting again, if need be, just because someone is on the ground.

    I agree with the fact that a downed bad guy could be a threat. I was asking in the civilian world what would be considered to much. I've trained with specialized units of the military to fire fire two controled rounds to center mass then reevaluate the threat. If it's still a treat reengage with 2 more. If its still a threat go with head shots. But Ive heard in some states such as CA, MA, NY and such this could be conceared obsessive force.
    This I would think could happen anywhere the ADA/DA/prosocuter what to make a name for themself/make the CC population look bad --- certain areas of my home state come to mind. I was taught that we engage the threat until the threat is no longer a threat. I was also taught that I need to think like any other reasonable person. In KS the use of deadly force is "what any resonable person would believe to a threat to life or grave bodily injury to oneself or a third person." The story of your friend meets that level for me; the BG had intent to harm your friends wife's life or cause grave injury.

    FYI: I am not a lawyer, the son of a lawyer nor have I every played a lawyer on TV and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night!

  5. #64
    Member Array CenterOfMass's Avatar
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    First of all - thank you for your service, skysoldier.

    IMO - it is simply about removing the threat. Your military training of two quick shots to centermass will normally remove any threat unless the BG is wearing body-armor - if that is the case, your problems are much more serious than round-count.

    This is not about math but about taking a BG out in a life threatening scenario. I would hate to see anyone in a situation where they failed to protect themselves or their loved ones due to worry about legal issues, and wind up being shot or killed themselves.

    Stay vigilant and protect your rights!
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  6. #65
    Member Array lwdaniel's Avatar
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    Awhile ago in Houston, TX, HPD got in a shooting where about 30 shots were fired within a minute or so, it was at one guy in a room they considered a threat to their safety. Most shots were fired by one officer. He emptied a mag. and reloaded and fired more shots.

    You should heard the bleeding hearts crying foul. but the D.A. at the time gave an analogy , "if it is OK to kill a guy dead, it is OK to kill him dead, dead, dead."

    However like they said in earlier replies, two quick shots to center mass of the bad guy usually is sufficient.

  7. #66
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    Until the threat isn't

    Total rounds fired are strictly based on if the threat still exists.

    Rule of thumb, or at least it should be a rule of thumb, is based on military training. 2 quick, but well placed bullets to center of mass, then reevaluate the situation.

    Reevaluation of the situation doesn't require you to holster your gun and ask the BG if he/she's done. Reevaluation can take place in 2 seconds, maybe less.

    I train to shoot 2, reevaluate and shoot 2 more if necessary, reevaluate and shoot 2 more if necessary, reevaluate...

    The "Reason" behind 2 shots can be directly linked to the Military, which is a GOOD thing for your legal protection.
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  8. #67
    Member Array phantom1984's Avatar
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    In Kentucky the law is you only fire a firearm in a life and death situation. If you shoot to wound you will be in trouble. I was told by a few cop buddies and a couple of lawyers if you shoot a bad guy and don't kill him you had better testify that you tried to kill him and missed.
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  9. #68
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    It comes down to your testimony on the stand, why you shot once or needed to shoot 50 times, justifying the use of deadly force and the amount of force needed is crucial. According To Your State Laws Apply.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    ...In my military training we are taught to neutralize the threat....I was told that in North Carolina where I will be carrying...could get me into legal trouble as multiple shots could be over kill...I’m just trying to get peoples input on this possible legal scenario...
    Most of the time the right answer is something like until the threat is neutralized or you are no longer in fear for your life.

    However there are jurisdictions that have suttle (and sometimes not suttle) differences. For example some jurisdictions have the castle doctrine in place, while others have a requirement to retreat.

    Hopefully someone here can provided you with relevant information for that jurisdiction, and provide a place for you to verify it (maybe a state website).

    Just to throw a wrench into the works, consider if you might be held to a different standard because of your military training (could work for you or against you).

    No matter what, don't let this chatter as what to do here mess with your head in the sandbox. Keep to the training and ROE.
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  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    If there is forensic evidence that the BG was laying down or incapacitated when the fatal shot was fired you could be in deep do-do.

    During the investigation and autopsy they will determine the angle of the shots fired and the order of shots fired to figure out if charges are warranted.
    +1 to that!
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  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by coriantan View Post
    Total rounds fired are strictly based on if the threat still exists. I totally agree. Shoot to STOP the threat. PERIOD...END OF DISCUSSION.

    Rule of thumb, or at least it should be a rule of thumb, is based on military training. 2 quick, but well placed bullets to center of mass, then reevaluate the situation. Several folks on this thread have advocated the "2 shots to COM and evaluate" answer. I would like to know....what stops the BG from shooting you while you take that evaluation time? HMMMMM??? It is a proven fact that the human body can take/receive lethal rounds and continue to function for 15-20 seconds prior to hitting the ground. The two shot to COM and evaluate theory is OUTDATED and DANGEROUS to your health. You shoot until the threat is stopped. Then you assess, scan for additional threats, and top off your ammo...

    Reevaluation of the situation doesn't require you to holster your gun and ask the BG if he/she's done. Reevaluation can take place in 2 seconds, maybe less. As stated above, those 2 seconds to reevaluate can/will cost you your life in certain situations. Shoot to STOP the threat regardless of the rounds it takes...If it's two rounds, then so be it, but you had best be sure the threat is stopped before you reevaluate the situation...

    I train to shoot 2, reevaluate and shoot 2 more if necessary, reevaluate and shoot 2 more if necessary, reevaluate...Then Sir, I hope your training doesn't get you killed someday if/when you are presented with a life or death fight.

    The "Reason" behind 2 shots can be directly linked to the Military, which is a GOOD thing for your legal protection. I believe you could possibly be incorrect in your two shot training being linked to the military...try this link: Mozambique Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (the Mozambique Drill or sometimes known as the Failure Drill)
    I've posted some of my thoughts in bold above. The bottom line is the fact that the practice of 2 shots COM and potentially 1 shot to the head or groin is something that you can practice on the range to develop your shot placement. But to ingrain that into your motor/muscle memory so that in a life or death situation, you default to 2 shots COM and then assess, is a practice that could bring you FATAL consequences...Do as you wish. I shall shoot to stop the threat (put the threat down) and then assess/evaluate...JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  13. #72
    Member Array MSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    I've posted some of my thoughts in bold above. The bottom line is the fact that the practice of 2 shots COM and potentially 1 shot to the head or groin is something that you can practice on the range to develop your shot placement. But to ingrain that into your motor/muscle memory so that in a life or death situation, you default to 2 shots COM and then assess, is a practice that could bring you FATAL consequences...Do as you wish. I shall shoot to stop the threat (put the threat down) and then assess/evaluate...JMO
    As someone who's done allot of shooting in the Army, and allot of training Soldiers to do the same, I can tell you where people get the "two shot then evaluate" mentality. Allot of people take it out of context. It's not designed for one-on-one, civilian SD-type shooting scenarios.

    The "controlled pair" ot "two shots then evaluate" is designed for reflexive fire or close quaters scenarios where there may be/is likely to be multiple enemies. It's not meant to be fire two shots and quit. It's meant to be... fire two shots, and make sure there's no one else shooting at you. You don't want to unload a magazine, focused on one threat, while two more unload on you. So, it's a controlled pair at the immediate threat, evaluate and engage additional threats.

    On this topic however, I think how many shots are too many depends on where you are at and what that states case law looks like. I had some unofficial legal advice from a cop friend a few years ago that said in his experience, people who unloaded the weapon on the BG faired better because a jury believed they must have really feared for their life to do so. That was his opinion though, and by no means valid case law.
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  14. #73
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    In the heat of action and passion, most people will probably simply empty their weapons, and not that accurately, usually from handguns. This may or may not be good but it is understood...unless somebody has the time and the mind to deliberately take aim at long range. "If you are far enough away to aim your gun, you are far enough away to run." Quote: Leon Harrison

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