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How Many Shots Are Too Many (Legal Question)

10K views 72 replies 62 participants last post by  Cold Warrior 
#1 ·
I have a legal question to pose. I have been debating a topic with people I work with in my unit while sitting around in Afghanistan. Question: How many shots is too many?
In my military training we are taught to neutralize the threat (Which I translated to civilian terms as anything to win a fight) IE, why I have a light a laser attached to my G23 IOT make the BG quit (I hope) before I have to use deadly force.
My training had taught me to fire two controlled but rapid shots to center mass, reevaluate and continue to engage if there is still a threat of loss of life or injury.
I was told that in North Carolina where I will be carrying since I’m stationed at Fort Bragg could get me into legal trouble as multiple shots could be over kill. Not that I'm going to dumb 16 rounds of .40 cal into a BG.
I’m just trying to get peoples input on this possible legal scenario.

AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY!
 
#57 ·
You shoot till the threat is over, then you STOP.
How many shots fired is too many? Any number of shots fired after there is no longer a threat to your life.
Things can be and often are per real world incidents quite fluid.

One moment you are run up on by Deebo and he has you pinched by threat of a strong arm robbery.

Next thing he and you both know, your hand appears to hold lightening at your command.
You both hear thunder claps. One, two, three...He falters and turns to flee.

Your conscious brain 'sees' him running away beating feet as into the distance.
Nothing there but his back or even front, as he backpedals & stumbles clearly trying to put space between you, the lightening and himself.

But you keep on firing, anyway...And in the space of one bullet transfer from becoming the aggressed to aggressor. : |

It can and does happen that quick.
You gotta stay on your toes mentally and work to contain your emotion in the immediate. Easier said than done but none the less remains a necessity.

- Janq
 
#3 ·
Cuban said it all. The most famous quote/story on such a subject involves an incident where a perp "executed" an LEO and the hunt was on. When finally cornered, the ensuing shootout resulted in I believe 65 bullet holes in the perp. When asked why so many, the officer in charge said "because that was all we had". Bottom line IMO is that if you are in imminent danger of death or bodily injury that requires discharge of your weapon---then discharge your weapon.
 
#4 ·
^^^^heres the quote^^^^^^ below


AND YES, I would concur, about D T Center Mass ,BG down fight over;
BGstill up??;
A few more rounds for sure.
I'm going to take my chances, and eliminate the threat, by whatever means necessary, and hope the DA is sensible in their assesment of the situation.
What I find rediculous is that people who have never been in a grave situation, and were not PRESENT for yours, can somehow pass judgement on what defines overkill.
Insanity.


Because that's all the ammunition we had.'
Polk Co. Fla. Sheriff Grady Judd
 
#5 ·
If there is forensic evidence that the BG was laying down or incapacitated when the fatal shot was fired you could be in deep do-do.

During the investigation and autopsy they will determine the angle of the shots fired and the order of shots fired to figure out if charges are warranted.
 
#6 ·
Oneshot, Thanks for your response. I just don't want to underestimate the power of stupid people IE lawyers and gun fearing idiots. I know a guy who lost his CCW for getting into a shooting in CA (gun haters). He was a Special Forces guy who shot the guy twice in the chest, the DA said because he was a highly trained to use firearms that he he should have shot him in the shoulder or something, even though the BG had a knife on the guys wife.
 
#19 ·
I wonder if the DA has a number for how many stabs wounds are too many. Maybe he would take away his knife card? What an idiot.

For me, it's till the threat is stopped. I generally train to shoot between 2-5 times at the target after drawing. That said, I have heard several folks say it's not unheard of for folks to empty the gun in the heat of the moment. Basically, I would likely shoot till they are on the ground, compliant, or running away.
 
#7 ·
Thank you for your service.

Sky Soldier:

Since we do not shoot to kill, only to stop, you will need to frame your minimal remarks made after an incident in this light.

In CA, MA, NJ, NY and MA, you would likely run into LEOs and ADAs who would react as your example, but in most other states your skills would not automatically make you a murder suspect.

If you are unsure, it might be helpful to go on line and read the actual NC regulations.

And again, thank you for your service; you and your squad make it possible for us to have these discussions.

Capt. Art
 
#8 ·
I'm a NC CHP instructor and teach that you shoot until the threat stops. There's no magic number of rounds. A double tap may not be over doing it at all. If the threat stops with one round or one set of double taps then any more would be excessive. Now if you have to stop and run to Wal Mart for more ammo and then come back to pick up where you left off that may be on the verge of excess but if the threat keeps advancing and or threatening then shoot until the threat ceases to be a threat.

Do NOT shoot once and holster. Always evaluate the situation before lowering your guard. Good guys have died because they practice one shot and holster in training.

One thing even more important is to avoid tunnel vision and not look for partners of the bad guy. You wouldn't want to not have enough ammo to share.
 
#9 ·
Interesting perspective rottkeeper...

I've always figured just shoot until the threat is no longer present, so I believe I would be out of trouble easily enough, but I never thought about the forensics if you were to get caught in the heat of a gunfight and kept shooting. Had completely forgotten they can find out what angle every shot was taken from.
 
#53 · (Edited)
Actually in the heat of the moment continuing to fire once the bad guy is down OR turns to flee is indeed a very real possibility. Once you decide to shoot and the adrenilin is pumping most people either experience a "slow motion" or even "out of body" feeling.
There are many cases where what the shooter was sure was the actual order of events that were proven wrong by forensics or video cameras.
We as responsible gun owners need to mentally prepare ourselves to;

1. Shoot only when absolutely neccessary.
2. SHOOT when neccessary.
3 Be aware of others in the line of fire and not shoot if not able to do so safely.
3. Stop shooting once the threat is down or turns to flee! (Correct this to read Stop shooting once the threat is over. Down could still be a threat. If they are down but still holding their gun or trying to regain it keep shooting.
 
#10 ·
Well, this is kind of where good marksmanship skills can help out a little.

I've always been taught to shoot until the the threat is over.

Using that professional instruction, I'm pretty confident I can articulate that in court if a prosecutor wants to make issue out of how many rounds are received by the attacker. However, at the same time, I do not want to give the appearance that I kept shooting him after he was down and out, unless I can show he still had a weapon in his hands and still making purposeful movements to carry on the fight.

Also, if I am not already behind cover when the attacker goes to the ground, I'm going to be heading behind cover as soon as he drops.

There is also some case precedent made in which LEO's engage with what would appear to the untrained to be an excessive amount of bullets yet are cleared in their shooting cases.
 
#12 ·
There is also some case precedent made in which LEO's engage with what would appear to the untrained to be an excessive amount of bullets yet are cleared in their shooting cases.
yeah but we all know that in certain areas there is a prevailing belief that LEOs are in a class on their own. We civies are held to a different standard.
 
#11 ·
Since the angle of the 'actually stopper' can be determined by the CSI team, then the object of threat stopping would likely be...empty your mag prior to the the dirtbag home invader hitting the tile...threat over, thud!:rolleyes:

Actually, I don't believe there can be a certain 'number of shots' allowed or not allowed to stop a threat, just whatever it takes.:ticking:
 
#13 ·
Dont empty that third mag. also if threat is down 2 to the head will probably take some explaining..
 
#14 ·
How about this twist? I have a friend who has a 22-caliber semi-automatic rifle. He can put a dozen bullets in a target in no time. That could be what you need, as far as I know, to neutralize the BG with a 22-caliber weapon. Would the BG's relatives or some bleeding-heart lawyer argue that that's overkill? I bet they would, and maybe win a settlement in court. Given that scenario, how much would be considered necessary per caliber and load? How much would be overkill, according to the bleeding-heart lawyers? We could split hairs on this one for a long time.
 
#15 ·
"Excessive" shots and falling assailants

Recent research seems to indicate that shooters under the stress of a life and death encounter are unable to immediately stop shooting once they recognize that the threat is incapacitated.

From Force Science Research Center:

"Excessive" shots and falling assailants: A fresh look at OIS subtleties

A new look at why officers often fire controversial "extra" shots after a threat has ended has been published by an independent shooting reconstructionist and certified Force Science analyst.

Researcher Alexander Jason reports that even under benign experimental conditions brain programming compels roughly 7 out of 10 officers to keep discharging rounds after being signaled to stop shooting. "In a real gunfight, under extraordinary stress and threat of death, an even much higher percentage would likely deliver extra shots," Jason asserts.

On average, additional findings show, officers may "reasonably" fire 6 rounds or more into suspects who initially are standing and then begin falling and who, in fact, may already be mortally wounded. And that's 6 rounds per officer involved in the confrontation.

"Understanding why this occurs can be critical in shooting investigations and in criminal proceedings and civil lawsuits that allege excessive force by officers for firing 'too many' shots," says Dr. Bill Lewinski, executive director of the Force Science Institute. "As Jason explains, so-called 'extra' shots are generally beyond an officer's control. They're more likely to be an involuntary reaction under stress than a conscious decision with malicious motivation."

About 7 years ago, Lewinski performed widely cited experiments in Tempe, AZ, that documented the tendency of officers to "over-shoot," that is to discharge 1 or more additional rounds after perceiving a stop stimulus during rapid-fire discharges. (Click here to read about the study.)

Jason's work, conducted in California, essentially confirms some of the Tempe factors and adds important new elements. His full report appears in the current issue of Investigative Sciences Journal, a peer-reviewed professional quarterly, and can be downloaded free of charge in pdf format at Investigative Sciences Journal. Click on the paper, "Shooting Dynamics: Elements of Time & Movement in Shooting Incidents."

Background

A crime scene analyst specializing in shooting analysis and reconstruction, Jason heads the Anite Group in Pinole, CA, and has been involved in a number of high-profile cases, including New York City's Sean Bell incident in which a prospective bridegroom was killed shortly before his wedding in a fusillade of 50 rounds fired by undercover and plainclothes officers.

Jason, formerly with the San Francisco PD, told Force Science News that he has sporadically conducted research tests related to officers and shooting dynamics across a number of years, but decided to compile and publish a summary of results only after graduating last year from a certification course in Force Science Analysis. He included his latest experiment, performed just a few months ago, on how long it takes a human body to fall from a standing position. This is a subject that the Force Science Research Center is also investigating.

Time to Stop

The core of Jason's paper is his research on how long it takes an officer in rapid-fire mode to stop shooting once he perceives that he should do so.

The test subjects were 32 officers (30 of them male), ranging in age from 23 to 56, with the median age 33. They averaged nearly 11 years' service, but ranged in experience from less than a year to more than 2 decades.

Using the semiautomatic pistols and leather gear they normally wear on duty, they one at a time faced a "hostile man" target at a distance of 5 ft. Hands at their side, they were told to draw and "start shooting at the buzzer. Shoot as fast as you can," and stop shooting when 2 100-watt spotlights pointed at them flash on. An electronic shot-timer provided the start signal and the "stop" lights came on at random intervals, after a minimum of 4 intended shots.

"Most of the officers were unable to immediately stop shooting at the stop signal," Jason reports. Indeed, 69% fired at least 1 "extra" shot, with 17% firing 2 extra and 8% firing 3. Fewer than 1/3 were able to stop fast enough to prevent discharging surplus rounds.

Although the shooters "reacted as quickly as they could," Jason writes, most continued to pull the trigger past the stop signal "because the brain-to-trigger finger impulse was still 'in motion.' " In other words, they could not perceive the light signal, transmit that perception to the brain, have the brain interpret it, and send back a "stop" command before the trigger finger was already proceeding with subsequent shots based on the mental program that had been put in action by the start buzzer.

Benchmark findings by other researchers, cited by Jason, suggest that as a rule of thumb the brain may need about 3/10 of a second to evaluate an incoming stimulus, and then at least 16/100 of a second minimum to "inhibit (cancel) an anticipated action (like firing the next shot)."

Such reaction times, of course, vary among individuals. And if an officer does not instantly see a stop signal because his visual attention is narrowed and intensely concentrated on his sights and/or the target, the delay in responding can be much longer, Jason explains.

Extra Shots on the Street

Jason writes: "It is important to compare and note the different effects on performance between the conditions facing a shooter in [the] safe and relatively stress-free [experiment] with an urgent, life-threatening and highly stress-inducing situation [of] a real-life shooting incident.

"The shooters in the test only had one, clearly defined stimulus to stop firing.... A shooter in a genuine shooting incident will [experience] both a higher level of physiological arousal (stress) and additional choices (Should I take cover? Is the target person no longer a threat? Should I look around for other threats? Are there others who may be exposed to my gunfire?, etc.).

"Human performance research has determined that as the number of choice alternatives increases, reaction time (including perception, decision, and action) will increase. The elevated arousal and multiple-alternatives effect will likely cause the shooter to fire additional 'extra' shots--more than [were] measured in this test study."

Lewinski found in the Tempe study that the more motivated a shooter was to shoot, the longer it took before he was able to stop shooting. "And an officer firing to save his life is about as 'motivated' as a human being can be," Lewinski says. "Once the human dynamics of ceasing shooting under stress are understood, the less sinister the connotation of 'extra' shots generally will seem."

Time to Fall

In his most recent study, Jason measured the amount of time required for a person to fall to the ground from a standing position and explored the implications of shots fired by officers at the falling figure, whether those shots are deliberate or involuntary because of reaction time.

During a confrontation with a standing armed offender, "the most commonly understood and accepted indication that the [suspect] is no longer a threat is when that person either releases the gun from his hand(s) and/or drops to the ground" from being shot, Jason states.

He asked 5 volunteers (4 males, 1 female) to stand "erect with hands out in front, as if holding a gun" and, upon verbal command, to drop to a padded mat "as quickly as possible." This, he concedes, was an imperfect attempt to mimic a rapid collapse ("dropping like a sack of potatoes") such as would occur from "a significant disruption of the central nervous system or sudden loss of consciousness." Genuine collapses from such causes, of course, cannot be tested in an experimental environment.

Thirty-five drops were recorded with a digital video camera and later analyzed on a computer. Timing began "at the first detectable motion initiating the movement of the body" toward the ground and ended when the upper torso was on the mat and "horizontal to the ground."

On average, the subjects took 1.1 seconds to fall down. During this amount of time, Lewinski's research has shown that "4 shots could be fired by an 'average' police officer," Jason writes. "A crumple fall [going to the knees first, then down] will take more time and could result in several more shots fired during the movement. Additional shots could also be fired until the shooter perceives that the person is no longer a threat and is able to interrupt his shooting sequence."

In all, Jason writes, "the total number of [rapid-sequence] shots fired at a person standing then going to the ground could reasonably be a minimum of 6 shots: 1 or more before the [suspect] begins to fall; 4 shots during the fall; 1 or more as the body contacts the floor" during the time required for the brain to recognize and process that the threat has ceased.

"In situations with more than one shooter firing, the total number of reasonable shots could be 6 x Number of Shooters; i.e., if 3 officers were firing simultaneously, then 18 shots (6 x 3) would be expected....etc."

Depending on a suspect's positioning through the fall, at least some of these shots may end up entering through his back, Jason points out, deepening the illusion that the shooting was an unjustified "execution." In his paper, he includes graphics showing how "posterior entries" can innocently occur under these circumstances.

Further Considerations

Apart from the reaction-time phenomenon, a falling assailant may invite continued gunfire because a collapse or crumple can be an ambiguous movement. Falling from incapacitating wounds cannot always be "distinguished from a deliberate tactical maneuver of someone who has decided to go to ground to avoid being shot or to assume a less exposed position while returning or preparing to return gunfire," Jason writes. "Even a mortally wounded person can fall to the ground and fire one or more shots before becoming incapacitated and/or unconscious."

Moreover, because of the nature of bullet wounds an officer may not know whether his rounds are hitting his assailant--another motivation to keep shooting. Jason explains:

"There is no significant momentum or 'push' from a bullet strike. This means that there would be no significant...motion effect of a bullet striking a standing or falling person.... Also...unlike the shootings seen in dramatic films and TV shows, it is most often not possible to visually determine if a shot has actually struck a target person. Bullet entry holes do not project large amounts of blood and the defect in the skin--always smaller than the bullet diameter--may not be visible at all if the shot was fired through clothing, particularly loose or layered clothing."

In short, Jason concludes, police shootings can be complex occurrences. For persons untrained in forensics and the science of human behavior to jump to conclusions in judging an officer's actions can lead to grave misinterpretations and injustices.

"Jason is to be congratulated on his work," Lewinski says. "More research is starting to be focused on street-level law enforcement issues, and with every effort our understanding of the dynamic interplay between officers and their assailants becomes that much clearer."
Sorry for the long post. This appeared on a local board I'm a member of and there was no link. It seems to tie in well with the current discussion.

And thank for your service skysoldier29
 
#16 ·
How many shots is to[o] many?

I was told that in North Carolina where I will be carrying since I’m stationed at Fort Bragg could get me into legal trouble as multiple shots could be over kill.
It can be seen as "overkill" anywhere, depending on the zealotry and blind passion of the District Attorney who reviews the case. Who's to say how much is too much?

Every situation is different. You might need only to draw. You might empty your full magazine, and even then the attacker might not stop. But, people's opinions are only that, while what's required in a given situation is something that you'll have to determine on the instant of the deadly attack against you. I've been trained to think it through ahead of time, to know what I'm prepared to do, such that what needs doing on the instant of attack becomes second-nature.

Consider reading the book In The Gravest Extreme, by Massad Ayoob. Or, consider taking his LFI-1 course, The Judicious Use of Deadly Force.

I, too, rely upon my training. Basically, I have been trained to withdraw if at all possible; to not shoot if at all possible; but, to competently and energetically end an otherwise unavoidable and imminent lethal confrontation as quickly and violently as I am capable of doing. If it involves my firearm, I have been trained to shoot for a vital area as many times as is required to stop the attack cold, until the immediate threat has passed; then, reevaluate; withdraw to a safe area; then, call the cavalry for support.

I have been trained to use the A.O.J. model when engaging in the justifiable use of self-defense.

Beyond that, I would strongly suggest that it can be just as crucial to BE SEEN to be justified, and to BE SEEN to be the good guy. That implies much, in terms of how to handle a situation, how to manage attempted withdrawal, how to speak/act in response to an attack, how to ensure witnesses see and understand what is happening. Speak with your attorney, someone who is competent and qualified for defending and winning cases involving the justifiable use of defensive force against violent attack. Understand the differences as they apply to someone with serious military training, if that's your background.


Recent research seems to indicate that shooters under the stress of a life and death encounter are unable to immediately stop shooting once they recognize that the threat is incapacitated.
That squares with the aftermath reports from actual shootings involving police officers, in which many report losing track of details during such engagements. Still, shooting after there is no longer a threat simply doesn't sit well with our PC community members, thus we must strive to avoid it to the degree possible ... else it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back in a defense justification.
 
#17 ·
Personally, if I end up in a shooting situation, I will shoot as many shots as necessary to stop the threat... what I won't do is go in to that situation with an avoidable mental handicap, that being, any preconceived notion of how many shots it will take or worse yet... worrying about using too many. :wink:
 
#18 ·
In Tx if you are justified to use deadly force you shoot to stop the threat,one thing you gotta remember is there are cameras everywhere,once the threat is over then call for help,don't be a dufus like the drugstore owner that shot an armed robber walked out of the store came back in and walked behind the counter retrieved another gun and walked over to suspect on ground and pumped some more bullets into him,deadmen do tell tales when it's on the store surveillance camera
 
#20 ·
Until I run out, if necessary... and if that hasn't stopped the threat, it wasn't enough.

Should we wait until they shoot again at us, to decide it wasn't enough ?

You mention 16 rounds.... being too many. Huh ? 2 local officers were in a shoot out with a BG 10-20 ft away in the open, and the "officers" ... fired 68 rounds, and wounded the BG "once" , in the leg.

It's all relative.
 
#21 ·
I practice shooting 4 shots as fast as possible, then pause. I'm carrying a .380 when I get the glock 30...I won't change that just to be consistent.

What if the first shot kills him...the other three don't matter, right?

Also I do visualize walking up to a downed perp and putting one in each kneecap or ankle. not lethal but "insurance"
 
#23 ·
12smile, while I can see the 4-with-a-380 training, I am concerned about the other statements - were they intended as straight comments or humorous? At the risk of taking the bait, here's my response assuming these to be serious remarks:

You're certainly right, the other three don't matter for the bad guy, but would probably make life difficult for you in court: if the first killed him then the others were not needed, showing you to be a bloodthirsty savage, etc...

And if he's downed, you're again using lethal force without need. Sure, that will keep him down. Sure, it will give him pause if he recovers, and gets/stays out of jail and encounters you in the community again. It might even suggest to his pals that you really aren't someone to mess with. But adding to his injuries after the threat is stopped is a punishment thing, which the State reserves for itself. Doing it yourself is classic vigilante behavior, and you would be crucified by most courts. Such may be defensible in some communities ("Your Honor... he needed shootin'") but not in the vast majority of the country.

Apologies all around and you get points for suckering me if you were joking - and I honestly wish you the best in either case.
 
#24 ·
I have a legal question to pose. I have been debating a topic with people I work with in my unit while sitting around in Afghanistan. Question: How many shots is to many? In my military training we are taught to neutralize the threat (Which I translated to civilian terms as anything to win a fight) IE, why I have a light a laser attached to my G23 IOT make the BG quit (I hope) before I have to use deadly force. My training had taught me to fire two controlled but rapid shots to center mass, reevaluate and continue to engage if there is still a threat of loss of life or injury. I was told that in North Carolina where I will be carrying since I’m stationed at Fort Bragg could get me into legal trouble as multiple shots could be over kill. Not that I'm going to dumb 16 rounds of .40 cal into a BG. I’m just trying to get peoples input on this possible legal scenario.

AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY!
You need to take a class that covers this area more intensively.

You will have a more clear understanding of ROE's in a civilian encounter if you get some formal training on the issue, and this better understanding will make you react faster, and more lethally.
 
#25 ·
Realistically, I don't think anyone will be thinking about the law, anymore than you do about insurance questions in the middle of a car accident. You react. Afterwards, hope for the best.
 
#26 ·
Many self defense shooters who are faced with a deadly peril type scenario cannot remember how many shots they have fired and have gone on auto-pilot and have shot their firearm until it was empty. They bang till it clicks.
It seems to be a fairly common occurrence in true "fight or flight" "life hanging in the balance" panic type situations.
 
#27 ·
As my instructor for my ccw told us to tell the judge if we are ever involved in a SD shooting and the judge asks you "Why did you shoot him 9 times" your response better be : your honor 8 wasn't enough and 10 would have been too many:danceban:
 
#29 ·
link to article quoted above:
“Excessive” shots and falling assailants: A fresh look at OIS subtleties

Most of my courses and the one at the police academy stressed two shots COM, low ready, evaluate the threat and be prepared for a failure to stop drill. However, more and more, I am seeing classes being taught that advise multiple shots to COM until the target goes down and is no longer a threat (just because he goes down does not mean he is still a threat). The philosophy here is that the handgun cartridge is generally underpowered for the task and, absent a CNS hit, can't let enough blood out to shut down the threat soon enough if it is close. In addition, making head shots on a moving target can be unreliable. Therefore, put as many shots on target as possible in the shortest amount of time. I'm not sure I fully subscribe to the theory yet but have a certain sympathy for it, especially since the self-defense could be taking place under circumstances in which you might not know, or be sure, that you even hit your target to begin with. If he is still up and coming, AOJ applies so keep shooting. Bottom line, its a facts and circumstances test but the people that grade it will be doing it from the luxury of their easy chairs, not scrambling around in the gutter with you.
 
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