TN Man's Permit Revoked: 1st Fall Out @ Post 110-MERGED

This is a discussion on TN Man's Permit Revoked: 1st Fall Out @ Post 110-MERGED within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Hopyard Yes, like work hard to preserve state preemption. By way of a "ferinstance," assist with challenges to that city's new code. ...

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Thread: TN Man's Permit Revoked: 1st Fall Out @ Post 110-MERGED

  1. #136
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Yes, like work hard to preserve state preemption. By way of a
    "ferinstance," assist with challenges to that city's new code.

    Really, it is a matter of keeping an eye on the ball or the goal. The guy who precipitated all of this just brought the craziness to the forefront. If the city wishes to intentionally violate an existing TN pre-emption law, that action by the city needs to be challenged.

    (I have no problem with them (the city) changing their antiquated law about military pistols and open carry. I agree such devices should be concealed unless there is an open carry law or supporting case law in that state. I do have a problem with what appears to be arbitrary license revocation (which perhaps is tactical) and with a city regulation in conflict with the state's statutes.)

    Their was NO conflict, except for the one he sought.

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  3. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankdriver View Post
    Hold on now.......

    There is a process, and they are using it correctly. They sent him letter that his permit has been revoked. Informed him that he has a certian number of days if he wants to file for an appeal. Then the appeal hearing will determine if revolking his permit was justified. If he doesn't agree with the results of the appeal, then state law allows him to request a judge review the appeal, and if any problems are found, the judge can order his permit to be reinstated. That is the process that is set up in the state law. And, yes, his permit was revoked on the day he received the letter, and he has to do all of this to try to get it back, but he can get it back.

    Look up the procedures for revoking or suspending a permit. You can be innocent, and just be falsely accused of a felony, but once you have been arrested for that crime, your permit is gone, and you will not get it back until you have cleared your name.
    Sorry, I'm not up on TN process as I'm in VA. I'm glad there is a process for review. As for the situation at hand, they took his CCP for Open Carrying. Even if they keep it, that will not prevent him from continuing to OC (unless posted). Don't get me wrong, I agree that he and his actions are detrimental to all of us...but so is a precedent of taking permits without just cause regardless of the extenuating circumstances. If there is just legal cause, by all means they should yank it.

    I can speak to the felony loss of CCP in VA anyway, as one of my best friends has been dealing with this very issue since January 1st of this year. My friend was indicted on 2 felony charges. While indicted, he cannot purchase any firearms, but he does not lose his CCP unless he is convicted. One charge has been dropped and the other is continued. If he fulfills community service and gets in no trouble for a year, the remainder of the charges will also be dropped. His lawyer did verify that he can legally retain his CCP and carry but he cannot purchase during this one year "probation" period.
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  4. #138
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    re: MitchellCT ????????

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Their was NO conflict, except for the one he sought.
    Not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to understand. The city has (had) a choice to make. Do nothing-- which seems perfectly reasonable--or react to his "provocation." Is that correct? The city could have done nothing more? Is that correct? The city made a choice? It was the city's decision made of the council's free-will to ban concealed carry? Is that correct?

    In reaction to the provocation, the city appears to have chosen to forbid CC within the city, disregarding the state wide preemption statutes. (Do I have it right so far?)

    Please explain, because I clearly am missing something, how his utilizing his right to legally open carry an antiquated military pistol, logically should cause the city to knowingly pass a law in conflict with the state's code and why that is his fault.

    Let's see. I wear orange T shirts on st. patty's day. This is perfectly legal but it upsets some folk, especially in the PD who happen to be of Irish descent. So the city passes a law forbidding the wearing of orange T shirts on st patty's day... notwithstanding both state and federal law and case law on freedom of political expression.

    Is the above analogy close?

    How is it logical that my wearing orange on st. patty's day causes the rest of you to lose your right to wear orange or green? How does that become my fault? I didn't pass the law which violates decades of case law on free expression. See?

    (Not attempting to be smart or funny here. I'm still struggling to understand why everyone is so down on someone who engaged in a lawful act, and why folks seem to think this is a set back.)

  5. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to understand. The city has (had) a choice to make. Do nothing-- which seems perfectly reasonable--or react to his "provocation." Is that correct? The city could have done nothing more? Is that correct? The city made a choice? It was the city's decision made of the council's free-will to ban concealed carry? Is that correct?

    (Not attempting to be smart or funny here. I'm still struggling to understand why everyone is so down on someone who engaged in a lawful act, and why folks seem to think this is a set back.)
    Because the law is three days older than dirt and nobody seemed to know about it. The statute is a remnant of the old army/navy law which was passed during and after Reconstruction to prevent freedmen and poor whites from carrying guns (the only guns that were legal to carry were the Colt Army revolver or the Colt Navy revolver -- which were prohibitively expensive). Decades passed and TN passed their CHL law and preemption statute but left laws passed before 1986 in place. Belle Meade simply forgot to change theirs to align with preemption, it doesn't look like they were defying state law at all. They never had a policy of arresting CHL holders, so I assume their local law was never enforced or even thought about, which seems about right from what the mayor is saying.

    And rather than try to engage the mayor (who seems really reasonable in this case and sympathetic to aligning w/ preemption despite Embody's stunts) or the city council to try and first inform them, educate them, and convince them to change it -- Embody goes ahead and carries anyway, knowing that he will cause a scene. I would be sympathetic to him in this case if I hadn't already heard of his Radnor Lake shenanigans with the BDUs, AK pistol, and painted orange tip.

    Embody has no sense of diplomacy or tact. He's in this to create as much trouble as possible and either gain money through his many frivolous lawsuits and/or turn people against gun owners as an agent provocateur.

  6. #140
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatCWP View Post
    As far as I understand it, TN preemption doesn't have an effect on laws that were enacted prior to 1986 -- Belle Meade's old army/navy law (probably enacted in 1866) fell under that exemption...
    Just for the idly curious, Bellemeade didn't exist as a community until sometime around 1906, when the grounds of the Bellemeade Plantation and stud farm were sold and development began. The Colt M1892 Army & Navy Revolver had been in production for over a decade at that point. I have no idea when the City of Bellemeade was actually incorporated, or when this law was originally drafted, but from a historical perspective, I'm thinking the M1892 may be the revolver to which the law originally referred. It was in service use and available. Not relevant to the thread, but the way my mind works.

    As far as the activist's situation goes, it will be interesting to learn how the State justifies its determination that he represents a material threat to the public, when he has broken no laws, and neither been arrested nor charged with anything, including brandishing or discharging a weapon or somehow causing a a member of the public to believe their life was in danger, made no threats. Nothing. I don't see how the State can justify its determination and revocation of his permit. To me, this is a lot like the State deciding to silence someone with whose speech they disagree.

    As far as Bellemeade goes, it appears he accomplished what he intended. They're changing their law, and it will either conform with State pre-emption, or it will be pre-empted, but it will no longer ban the carry of all firearms except the Army or Navy revolver carried openly in the hand.
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  7. #141
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom357 View Post
    Just for the idly curious, Bellemeade didn't exist as a community until sometime around 1906, when the grounds of the Bellemeade Plantation and stud farm were sold and development began. The Colt M1892 Army & Navy Revolver had been in production for over a decade at that point. I have no idea when the City of Bellemeade was actually incorporated, or when this law was originally drafted, but from a historical perspective, I'm thinking the M1892 may be the revolver to which the law originally referred. It was in service use and available. Not relevant to the thread, but the way my mind works.

    As far as the activist's situation goes, it will be interesting to learn how the State justifies its determination that he represents a material threat to the public, when he has broken no laws, and neither been arrested nor charged with anything, including brandishing or discharging a weapon or somehow causing a a member of the public to believe their life was in danger, made no threats. Nothing. I don't see how the State can justify its determination and revocation of his permit. To me, this is a lot like the State deciding to silence someone with whose speech they disagree.

    As far as Bellemeade goes, it appears he accomplished what he intended. They're changing their law, and it will either conform with State pre-emption, or it will be pre-empted, but it will no longer ban the carry of all firearms except the Army or Navy revolver carried openly in the hand.


    my colt navy is from 1862.....and they were made before that more than likely the point of the ordinance was to make it a hassle to carry a pistol unless you were white because if you were white the ordinance didnt apply to you...just like GA racist gun laws that look race neutral...
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  8. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Sorry, I'm not up on TN process as I'm in VA. I'm glad there is a process for review. As for the situation at hand, they took his CCP for Open Carrying. Even if they keep it, that will not prevent him from continuing to OC (unless posted).
    Unless I'm mistaken, TN is a "Licensed Open Carry State" meaning that one must have a permit to carry regardless of method.

  9. #143
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    It amazes me how people who are "so careful to obey the law" and stress deesclation and conflict reduction, are so tolerant of an irresponsible, confrontational moron who is doing whatever he can to provoke people.

    Kinda blows the mind, doesn't it?

    If the nashville-ninja really wanted to, he could have simply appeared at a town council meeting, addressed the issue and they probably would have gotten rid of the ordinance without much problem.

    But no...that would have been non-confrontational and made him come off as reasonable.

  10. #144
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    Does anyone know for certain that no one tried to go to council first?

    Also from what I understand there was no way to carry in this town, except openly, in the hand, with pistol XXX.

    If that is the case, and meeting that law so he could carry is seen as a problem, what was lost if that exemption is removed?

    I apologize for not being more familiar with what is being discussed, but I hope someone can fill me in.

  11. #145
    Member Array BAGMAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911marine View Post
    Frankly, I think his 2A rights should be revoked for being an idiot. But thats just me.
    +1 on that. I would never argue against his right to carry whatever is legal to carry BUT sometime common sense just has to take over.
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  12. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scar270 View Post
    Does anyone know for certain that no one tried to go to council first?
    He's posted in every firearms-related forum (and some non-firearms forums) in existence. He has never once mentioned going to the Belle Meade mayor or council.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scar270 View Post
    Also from what I understand there was no way to carry in this town, except openly, in the hand, with pistol XXX.
    Yes and no. Technically, the law was grandfathered in so that was in fact the only legal way to carry in town. However it was never actually enforced. Or remembered. The fact that the police stopped to investigate Embody for carrying in that manner shows that the law was forgotten about. The mayor said she would never have a policy of arresting people who had HCPs and carried concealed in the normal manner.

    Tennessee still has laws against interracial marriage on the books. Seems that people there just don't remember to revise their statutes that often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar270 View Post
    If that is the case, and meeting that law so he could carry is seen as a problem, what was lost if that exemption is removed?
    Nothing. except it's bad public relations. There are numerous ways to change bad laws. There's the old saying in America: we have the the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. We should resolve to solve problems in that order -- informing people first, then trying to vote on it second, filing lawsuits third, and only going armed last. Now, Embody wasn't out to shoot anybody -- but the citizens of Belle Meade didn't know that!

    By not exercising the first three options Embody has effectively embraced the stereotype of gun owners as pushy and prone to violence (read Mark Morford's bigoted rant against gun owners and see how Embody is an anti-gunners wet dream for ridicule.) He's effectively working for the other side. If I was a non-gun owner and saw only Embody's antics, I would vote for gun confiscation in a heartbeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar270 View Post
    I apologize for not being more familiar with what is being discussed, but I hope someone can fill me in.
    Everything you never wanted to know about Leonard Embody, aka kwikrnu:

    the wheel keeps on turning | walls of the city

    http://www.wallsofthecity.net/2010/0...-work-out.html

  13. #147
    Member Array Scar270's Avatar
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    Ok I think I caught on to what I missed. The state says it's legal to carry with a permit, but this ancient city ordenance said you can't unless it's open in hand with pistol XXX, so by the letter of the law, everyone carrying with a permit was illegal, just no one, including the council and police new that, or were enforcing it.

    If thats the case, then certainly one has to wonder the order in which things were done.

    Thanks for the explanation, greatly appreciated.

  14. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom357 View Post
    As far as the activist's situation goes, it will be interesting to learn how the State justifies its determination that he represents a material threat to the public, when he has broken no laws, and neither been arrested nor charged with anything, including brandishing or discharging a weapon or somehow causing a a member of the public to believe their life was in danger, made no threats. Nothing. I don't see how the State can justify its determination and revocation of his permit. To me, this is a lot like the State deciding to silence someone with whose speech they disagree.
    I have to agree with this. He broke no laws, so revoking his license seems too extreme to me. I've been reading and hearing about his "events" and the discussions that follow, and I've never once thought he was going to physically harm anyone. He's never shown aggression towards anyone. (Although his tones with the police are less than polite.) I think his actions are reckless in regards to the RTBA movement, but never to anyone's safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom357 View Post
    As far as Bellemeade goes, it appears he accomplished what he intended. They're changing their law, and it will either conform with State pre-emption, or it will be pre-empted, but it will no longer ban the carry of all firearms except the Army or Navy revolver carried openly in the hand.
    Yes, but we don't know how far the ripples will go. Throw a small rock in a pond and see how far it's effects go.

  15. #149
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    I think this explains it well enough

    More info:

    Letter from the Belle Meade police department (from links posted by wildcatCWP):

    "I [Thomas Sexton] am the Criminal Investigator for the Belle Meade Poilce Department and in that capacity request that the Handgun Carry permit issued to Leonard Stanni Embody be revoked.

    This request is not made lightly and based on the increasingly unsafe methods of displaying and/or carrying a firearm by Leonard Stanni Embody over the past 24 months.

    Leonard Stanni Embody has shown by his actions that he is repeatedly engaging in behavior while carrying or displaying a firearm that compromises the safety of the general public, responding law enforcement officers, and his own.

    On January 22, 2010 Leonard Stanni embody did knowingly and willfully carry a weapon within the City Limits of Belle Meade. Leonard Stanni Embody did carry the weapon in an unsafe manner, in an unsafe location and in an unsafe condition. Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1342 (a) (3) states that any actions by the permit holder that poses a material likelihood of risk or harm to the public will be grounds to suspend or revoke a handgun permit.

    Recent incidents have been well documented and published by Leonard Stanni Embody clearly show that his actions clearly are for his own benefit and do not represent the actions of a responsible citizen wishing to safely carry a handgun for legitimate purposes."

    -Bill

    PS: But, even after reading all this, I'm sure some (not many) here in this forum will still come to this dangerous imbecile's defense, feeling that Belle Meade is still in the wrong, and that Embody is some great Martyr to our 2nd Amendment cause??!!

  16. #150
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    Makes one wonder why the law would specify that to carry a gun it must be in an "unsafe manner, in an unsafe location and in an unsafe condition."

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