Ky. carry Question - Page 2

Ky. carry Question

This is a discussion on Ky. carry Question within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Supporting Maddyfish above: From the KY Attorney General (p. 5): ===== We are aware that KRS 527.070(1), creating a criminal offense for unlawful possession of ...

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Thread: Ky. carry Question

  1. #16
    Member Array MgoBlue's Avatar
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    Supporting Maddyfish above:

    From the KY Attorney General (p. 5):

    =====
    We are aware that KRS 527.070(1), creating a criminal offense for unlawful possession of
    certain weapons on school property, excludes "institutions of postsecondary or higher
    education". The fact that the legislature has elected not to criminalize the carrying of those
    weapons on the property of institutions of postsecondary or higher education, however, does not
    preclude the governing boards of public institutions of higher education from otherwise
    controlling the possession of deadly weapons on their properties.
    =====

    This is an opinion reviewing the legality of the University of Louisville banning firearms from its campus. The Attorney General says that the university may do so -- however, as noted above, no legal penalty is connected with such an action.

    You are confusing your reading of statues. KRS 527.070 which you make reference to is often misunderstood by our fine public servants. If you look closer at it, however, you will see that the prohibition of carrying on school grounds (whether public or private) does not apply to institutions of postsecondary or higher education -- see the first paragraph.


  2. #17
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    yep
    Last edited by maddyfish; March 20th, 2010 at 11:36 PM. Reason: MGO said the same thing, only better

  3. #18
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MgoBlue View Post
    Supporting Maddyfish above:

    From the KY Attorney General (p. 5):

    =====
    We are aware that KRS 527.070(1), creating a criminal offense for unlawful possession of
    certain weapons on school property, excludes "institutions of postsecondary or higher
    education". The fact that the legislature has elected not to criminalize the carrying of those
    weapons on the property of institutions of postsecondary or higher education, however, does not
    preclude the governing boards of public institutions of higher education from otherwise
    controlling the possession of deadly weapons on their properties.
    =====

    This is an opinion reviewing the legality of the University of Louisville banning firearms from its campus. The Attorney General says that the university may do so -- however, as noted above, no legal penalty is connected with such an action.

    You are confusing your reading of statues. KRS 527.070 which you make reference to is often misunderstood by our fine public servants. If you look closer at it, however, you will see that the prohibition of carrying on school grounds (whether public or private) does not apply to institutions of postsecondary or higher education -- see the first paragraph.
    Absolutely, they can kick you out. They can ban you from the property. They can fire you. Arrest you? nope.

  4. #19
    Member Array MgoBlue's Avatar
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    Now that we've handled that matter, I'm gonna celebrate the just-finished UK victory over Wake Forest!

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    O.K. we got the college part straighten out, but that doesn't answer my question.

    The facility in question is St. Elizabeth Hospital. It has nothing to do with a college or university. This outfit owns every hospital in northern Ky. On every main entrance door, in every facility I've had the mis-fortune to go to,they have the sign quoting the Ky. statute baring CCW or open carry. This is not a "ask to leave", this is you're busted.

    What I can't figure out is, does this mean the building or does it mean the property? Property meaning parking lots, drop off and pick up entrances, and roads on the hospital grounds.

  6. #21
    Member Array MgoBlue's Avatar
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    Back to your question then:

    Some states (e.g., Florida, I believe) have put the weight of law behind signs barring carrying (either open or conceal). So if someone enters a facility bearing such a sign, they are violating the law. Kentucky does not have such a provision in its statutes. However, KRS 237.110(16) does stipulate where you are not authorized to conceal carry -- and hospitals are not among the places. You will notice that subparagraph (h) states "Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law." That would cover places like Federal court houses, post offices, or other Federal buildings. Currently, that no longer covers National Parks.

    KRS 237.110(17) does provide for other entities to ban the carrying of firearms on their premises. Here hospitals would be covered. I encourage you to read this section carefully. This section specifically addresses your initial concern. You can see that you certainly are violating no law or policy by driving your car and dropping off/picking up someone from St. Elizabeth. More important, even if you were to enter the facility carrying your weapon, you would be violating no law. As stated in this section: "Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in this subsection by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer."

    That said, I personally try to comply with all such signs barring the carrying of firearms. It is the facility's right to say "we don't want guns," and it is my right to say "I'll take my business elsewhere."

    I hope this helps!

    The two KRS statutes I referenced are listed below. You can find them in their entirety at:
    KRS 237.00
    and, KRS 257.00

    ==========
    (16) Except as provided in KRS 527.020, no license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed firearm into:
    (a) Any police station or sheriff's office;
    (b) Any detention facility, prison, or jail;
    (c) Any courthouse, solely occupied by the Court of Justice courtroom, or court proceeding;
    (d) Any meeting of the governing body of a county, municipality, or special district; or any meeting of the General Assembly or a committee of the General Assembly, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a member of the body, holding a concealed deadly weapon license, from carrying a concealed deadly weapon at a meeting of the body of which he or she is a member;
    (e) Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense beer or alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose;
    (f) Any elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of school authorities as provided in KRS 527.070, any child-caring facility as defined in KRS 199.011, any day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894, or any certified family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, except however, any owner of a certified child-care home may carry a concealed firearm into the owner's residence used as a certified child-care home;
    (g) An area of an airport to which access is controlled by the inspection of persons and property; or
    (h) Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.

    (17) The owner, business or commercial lessee, or manager of a private business enterprise, day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894 or certified or licensed family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, or a health-care facility licensed under KRS Chapter 216B, except facilities renting or leasing housing, may prohibit persons holding concealed deadly weapon licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding concealed deadly weapons licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer or business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying concealed weapons is prohibited. Possession of weapons, or ammunition, or both in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the weapons, or ammunition, or both are not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. A private but not a public employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employer, but may not prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employee, except that the Justice and Public Safety Cabinet may prohibit an employee from carrying any weapons, or ammunition, or both other than the weapons, or ammunition, or both issued or authorized to be used by the employee of the cabinet, in a vehicle while transporting persons under the employee's supervision or jurisdiction. Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in this subsection by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer.

  7. #22
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    ^^^Not easy to take your buisness elsewhere if Bubba is in NKY. as every hospital is owned by the same people.
    The signs mean less than nothing when you are in the parking lot, so give no worry to driving up and dropping off a person. If you are going inside, guess thats up to you.
    SInce we are in the same area, I have carried very often in St.E north and St. Luke-now renamed St.E. north. No troubles.

    So as a note, they can put up a sign saying anything they want, their sign can say that you will be painted pink, and hung upside down by your toes and the truth is the most that hospital can do, if you are found out, is be asked to leave. I have no doubt that places that put up signs wish that people could be arrested. I have no doubt some of them even believe people can be arrested. I have no doubt that many places, even though they know the sign means nothing, will print and post a sign saying you will be arrested. Know the law. Don't believe what someplace that doesn't give a d*** about your safety says.

    So the signs in St.E. hold no legal power. You will not be arrested. You may be asked to leave if found out.


    And GO UK!

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Thanks Mgo Blue and Maddyfish. I appreciate the official and translated versions.

    Nobody is painting me pink. Also I'll probably be labeled a communist, but I don't care for stick and ball sports.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array Devone6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MgoBlue View Post
    Now that we've handled that matter, I'm gonna celebrate the just-finished UK victory over Wake Forest!
    Well, if nothing else, we agree on celebrating UK's victory!
    My heroes are Veterans and My Father (who was a veteran).

    I believe prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance should have REMAINED in schools, and the Ten Commandments should have REMAINED in schools, courthouses, and everywhere else it was before the ACLU got involved.

  10. #25
    Member Array Manzanita's Avatar
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    From the Kentucky Attorney General website: http://ag.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/85F5AB.../0/OAG9640.doc (link is to a word document)

    Excerpt from page 7 (emphasis mine):
    We are aware that KRS 527.070(1), creating a criminal offense for unlawful possession of certain weapons on school property, excludes “institutions of postsecondary or higher education”. The fact that the legislature has elected not to criminalize the carrying of those weapons on the property of institutions of postsecondary or higher education, however, does not preclude the governing boards of public institutions of higher education from otherwise controlling the possession of deadly weapons on their properties.
    The "governing boards of public institutions of higher education" do not have the authority to declare something a felony when state or federal law does not.

    I also looked carefully at the Kentucky State Police web page referenced by Devone6 and I cannot find where post-secondary schools are "listed there right along with Detention Centers, Police Departments, Courthouses and the rest of the real no-no places". What I do find is a reference to KRS 527.070 which specifically exempts post-secondary schools from the definition of "schools" in that same statute which you cite makes concealed carry on a college campus a felony. Sure, individual colleges can declare their property off limits to firearms. The OAG ruling I cited above places them on the same level of authority as private property owners. Violation results in a trespassing charge if they ask you to leave and you refuse. That's it.

    I hope that you, as a former police officer, and especially as a current CCDW instructor will make sure you aren't passing erroneous information to your students.

  11. #26
    Member Array MgoBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devone6 View Post
    Well, if nothing else, we agree on celebrating UK's victory!
    Tell ya what . . . that "21bubba" dude is probably a Commie! Don't like sports with sticks or balls. Sheesh!

    This time of year is the best time of year! Gosh, I love this stuff!

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    It is definitely true that St. E owns the NKY area. If you get sick, you're going to Saint Elizabeth's. It's just a matter of which one's closest (North for me).

    I have seen the same signs, and have carried concealed into them.

    Hey, my wife was in the ER, and I didn't have time to "dress down".

    Incidentally, I've always interpreted the KRS as Maddyfish, MgoBlue, and Manzanita have...
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Don’t mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

    Convenire Volui Spectatus

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Devone6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MgoBlue View Post
    Tell ya what . . . that "21bubba" dude is probably a Commie! Don't like sports with sticks or balls. Sheesh!

    This time of year is the best time of year! Gosh, I love this stuff!
    I love it too, or at least when we are playing good!

    Besides, I not too big (well, actually I'm about 25lbs too big) a man to say I guess I'm wrong, so I figure in fairness I must give 21bubba a break, maybe he will come around!
    My heroes are Veterans and My Father (who was a veteran).

    I believe prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance should have REMAINED in schools, and the Ten Commandments should have REMAINED in schools, courthouses, and everywhere else it was before the ACLU got involved.

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devone6 View Post
    I love it too, or at least when we are playing good!

    Besides, I not too big (well, actually I'm about 25lbs too big) a man to say I guess I'm wrong, so I figure in fairness I must give 21bubba a break, maybe he will come around!
    Sorry guys, I've tried to get into it. Just ain't gonna happen.

  15. #30
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
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    St. E's will not make an issue regarding the parking lot. Many of their associated carry, they leave their weapon in the car while at work.

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