Carry on Army Corps of Engineers / Federal Property

This is a discussion on Carry on Army Corps of Engineers / Federal Property within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There is a lot of discussion, with a lot of varying answers out there, much of which seems to be based on opinion. It seems ...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 31
Like Tree9Likes

Thread: Carry on Army Corps of Engineers / Federal Property

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array adaman04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Show Me State
    Posts
    809

    Carry on Army Corps of Engineers / Federal Property

    There is a lot of discussion, with a lot of varying answers out there, much of which seems to be based on opinion. It seems the largest gray area in CCW law is the cross between federal law and state CCW laws.

    I'm looking for hard evidence one way or another, not "don't ask don't tell". This question is from a legal standpoint, not my personal choice to carry or not. The sections below from Title 36 seem to say it's a no-go, but maybe someone else can help me.

    327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.

    (a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:

    (1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;

    (2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;

    (3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or

    (4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.

    (b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited


    Then.....


    327.26 State and local laws.

    (a) Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply on project lands and waters. This includes, but is not limited to, state and local laws and ordinances governing:

    (1) Operation and use of motor vehicles, vessels, and aircraft;

    (2) Hunting, fishing and trapping;

    (3) Use or possession of firearms or other weapons;

    (4) Civil disobedience and criminal acts;

    (5) Littering, sanitation and pollution; and

    (6) Alcohol or other controlled substances.

    (b) These state and local laws and ordinances are enforced by those state and local enforcement agencies established and authorized for that purpose.

    http://www.swf.usace.army.mil/pubdat...es/title36.pdf

    Thanks for any help!
    Last edited by Rock and Glock; January 12th, 2014 at 01:09 PM.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Member Array shorty82's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Winter Garden, Florida
    Posts
    93
    I am not a lawyer but it seems to me that 327.13 makes it illegal to carry a gun on Army Corps of Engineering land without permission unless you are a LEO, you are hunting (and weapon is unloaded when going to and from) or you are at a shooting range on the land.

    327.26 says that if there is no Federal regulation covering something then state and local regulation apply. If there is a Federal regulation on something then it supersedes state and local regulations. There is a Federal regulation covering firearms so the state and local laws concerning carry don't apply. As it says in 327.26 (emphasis on the bold part) "Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply on project lands and waters. This includes, but is not limited to, state and local laws and ordinances governing:"
    Hopyard likes this.

  4. #3
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    15,939
    Well, you may not end up in state court, but it sure sounds like you could end up in Federal court, which is never a good thing.

    It sounds pretty cut and dried to me: no CCW on federal property.
    Hopyard likes this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,540
    ...but...but...why would you NEED to carry a weapon there???!? I mean, if nobody else has one either?

    Snort.
    Recently updated website: http://www.damagedphotorepair.com

  6. #5
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wichita Falls, Texas
    Posts
    1,618
    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    ...but...but...why would you NEED to carry a weapon there???!? I mean, if nobody else has one either?

    Snort.
    LOL, that kind of goes along with those "Gun Free Zones" doesn't it.
    mook012 likes this.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array adaman04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Show Me State
    Posts
    809
    I’ll add that in MO CCW law (though we’re not just talking about MO here) one of the few places it’s actually illegal to carry is “places prohibited by federal law” which is a federal thing, not a statue issue. You’ll hear guys say all the time “you can carry there in my state”. Well I bet not if it is prohibited by federal law. Missouri doesn’t care if I carry there, but the federal government might have a different opinion.

    Putting the gun on every day is the smallest part of CCW. Being informed on all the other issues is the hard part.
    Hopyard likes this.

  8. #7
    Distinguished Member Array XD 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Where ever the government says go
    Posts
    1,744
    Cant carry on Fed property
    XD .45, Glock 23, Mossberg 590A, M&P 15 Rossi 641, RIA 1911


    If You Want To Know The Mind Of A Man Listen To His Words

  9. #8
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    44,540
    Federal Property = No Carry! Definitely...

    I should note that I am referring to Corps of Engineers property specifically.
    Rock and Glock likes this.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  10. #9
    Member Array archimeech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Savannah, Georgia
    Posts
    49
    Save yourself the heartache. I'm a Corps employee and the law is pretty specific. I assume you're talking about carrying in the Army Corps of Eng's regulated Federal Lands, and NOT into one of our offices. That being said, if you're there for hunting during season and in the right area, I hope you grab a big one, at least 6 point.

    Believe me, Federal Court is not the problem. Being someone's little girlfriend in Federal Prison with no chance of early parole is not worth testing the law. Federal LEO don't have a sense of humor when it comes to that.

    DON"T EVER, and I repeat, DON"T EVER walk into a Federal Building of any kind with ANY kind of item that is a weapon. This includes keychain pepper spray cans, scissors, pocket knives, bazookas etc. If you're contracted to do repairs you can get your tools in, but if they tell you it's a weapon and ask you to take it back out and secure it in your car. Listen to them.
    Last edited by archimeech; March 31st, 2010 at 12:18 PM. Reason: typos. . .
    "The problem with Socialism is, eventually, you run out of other people's money." . . . Margaret Thatcher
    Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns

  11. #10
    Senior Member Array adaman04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Show Me State
    Posts
    809
    Quote Originally Posted by archimeech View Post
    Save yourself the heartache. I'm a Corps employee and the law is pretty specific. I assume you're talking about carrying in the Army Corps of Eng's regulated Federal Lands, and NOT into one of our offices. That being said, if you're there for hunting during season and in the right area, I hope you grab a big one, at least 6 point.

    Believe me, Federal Court is not the problem. Being someone's little girlfriend in Federal Prison with no chance of early parole is not worth testing the law. Federal LEO don't have a sense of humor when it comes to that.

    DON"T EVER, and I repeat, DON"T EVER walk into a Federal Building of any kind with ANY kind of item that is a weapon. This includes keychain pepper spray cans, scissors, pocket knives, bazookas etc. If you're contracted to do repairs you can get your tools in, but if they tell you it's a weapon and ask you to take it back out and secure it in your car. Listen to them.
    Yes I am referring to Corps land and waters, not offices. A coworker's brother is a Corps employee and got in to a huge ordeal over carrying a pocketknife to work. I interned with the Corps for 2 summers and every guy in our office carried a pocket knife. Small project office, not a large office at all.

    I have no intentions of carrying in any federal building.

  12. #11
    VIP Member
    Array WHEC724's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    6,448
    Yikes. About 10 years ago we had a lake house on Lake Hartwell (army corps of engineers lays claim to all shoreline - yes, even on your property). I always check the dock when we first get there and saw a water moccasin laying on one of the pontoons under the boards.

    Well, being the redneck that I am, I didn't hesitate to pull a .38 and shoot his head off while the neighbors laughed and made jokes about me getting mad at the dock.

    That was long before I had a permit. That was just how things were done 'back in the day'.

    Oops.
    __________________________________
    'Clinging to my guns and religion

  13. #12
    Member Array Bandolero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    267
    Quote Originally Posted by shorty82 View Post
    I am not a lawyer but it seems to me that 327.13 makes it illegal to carry a gun on Army Corps of Engineering land without permission unless you are a LEO, you are hunting (and weapon is unloaded when going to and from) or you are at a shooting range on the land.

    327.26 says that if there is no Federal regulation covering something then state and local regulation apply. If there is a Federal regulation on something then it supersedes state and local regulations. There is a Federal regulation covering firearms so the state and local laws concerning carry don't apply. As it says in 327.26 (emphasis on the bold part) "Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply on project lands and waters. This includes, but is not limited to, state and local laws and ordinances governing:"
    Stated as well as, if not better, than a lawyer could put it.

  14. #13
    VIP Member
    Array DaveH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    SW Virginia
    Posts
    5,036

    Wait a minute

    Quote Originally Posted by XD 45 View Post
    Cant carry on Fed property
    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Federal Property = No Carry! Definitely...
    Not true.

    It is an agency-by-agency thing -- often modified/restricted by State law.

    See: current discussion at: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...carry-law.html

    In the USFS it tends to be regulated at the "Forest"/"Wilderness Area" level.

    USDA Forest Service - Caring for the land and serving people.

    Shooting sports activities have been enjoyed for generations and are welcomed on National Forest System lands.

    Both state and federal laws apply on National Forest System lands, so you also need to check on the state laws and county ordinances which may apply to the area you will be visiting. You also need to be in compliance with any general federal laws and regulations about weapons (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), etc). The National Rifle Association of America (NRA) and many commercial publications provide this information.

    The only regulations specific to use of weapons imposed by the Forest Service is that you cannot discharge a weapon within 150 yards of any structure/development or occupied area, within or into a cave, across or on a road or body of water, or in any manner that endangers a person. You also cannot use any tracer or incendiary ammunition. Forest Service regulations require that you also comply with all State laws regarding the use of firearms while hunting.

    If you are planning on visiting a designated Wilderness Area, the Regional Forester or Forest Supervisor has the option to implement a special local order which additionally prohibits the mere possession of a firearm within that Wilderness Area. Although this prohibition is not common, you should contact the Forest Supervisor's office to find out whether such a restriction has been imposed.

    We encourage you to use designated shooting areas or ranges. However, if you choose to shoot in an undesignated area, please ensure that your shooting does not damage any facilities or natural resources, disrupt other uses, or endanger public safety, and ensure you remove any targets, wads, shells, brass and other refuse with you when you leave. Be sure your shooting target area is free of rocks, as wildfires have resulting from sparks from ricochets. Be responsible for your action and follow outdoor ethics, in other words always, Leave No Trace and Tread Lightly! on federal lands.

    It is also a good idea regardless, just to contact the local Forest Service District or Forest Offices in advance of your visit to ask the same question, as they are more aware of local ranges and other opportunities, local orders or restrictions, issues and special conditions that may affect you.

    Enjoy your visit to our National Forests.

    Jamie Schwartz, Shooting Sports Liaison, USDA Forest Service
    Example:

    See:
    Possession of firearms. The possession and unconcealed carry of a firearm on the national forest is not restricted by federal law or Forest Service regulations with the exception of “prohibited possessors,” such as convicted felons (see 18 USC 922g (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...Cite:+18USC922) and ARS 13-3101 (Format Document) ). State laws regarding the concealed carry of firearms and the carrying of weapons within or on a motor vehicle apply to all National Forest System lands.

    Discharge of firearms. National Forest regulations prohibit the discharge of a firearm within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site, or any other occupied area; across a road or any body of water adjacent to a road; into or within a cave; or in any negligent manner that could endanger life or property (see 36 CFR 261.10d) (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...6cfr261.10.pdf) . The Tonto National Forest also has areas that are closed to recreational shooting year-round due to proximity to local communities (see Forest Closure Orders). During periods of high fire danger, additional restrictions on the use of firearms may be imposed. None of the temporary or year-round restrictions prohibit the use of a firearm in the lawful taking of game.

    New firearm laws.

    2nd Example (local for me)

    Laws Regarding Firearms on National Forest Lands

    First, the primary laws governing possession of firearms and other weapons on National Forest are State Laws. These laws were developed by the states following establishment of our Cooperative Wildlife Management Agreements. Most notable of the state laws concerns controlling firearms on the National Forest are “cased gun laws”.

    Cased Gun Laws: As the name implies, this law requires that all firearms on National Forest be unloaded and kept in a case. Virginia and West Virginia have similar “cased gun laws”. In order to allow hunting, these laws make an exception.

    ◦It is legal to have loaded firearms on National Forest during the authorized general firearms and muzzle loading gun seasons for bear, deer, grouse, pheasant, quail, rabbit, raccoon, squirrel, turkey, or waterfowl. This exception is very specific and applies only during the period when it is legal to take these listed species and doesn’t include carrying the loaded weapons in a vehicle.
    ◦Because hunting on Sunday is prohibited, carrying a loaded gun on National Forest is not legal on Sunday even if it is the Sunday in the middle of the general firearms deer season.
    The second exception to this law allows people with a concealed weapon permit to carry a loaded, concealed, handgun either on their person or in their vehicle while on National Forest. This does not apply if the person is engaged in a primitive weapons season or chase only season. ◦People muzzle loading or bow hunting may carry a concealed weapon as long as they possess a concealed weapon permit.
    [emphasis added]
    FWIIW -- Re: OP what litle contact I have had with US Army CoE and the rest of DoD they are hardball anti-RKBA (highly structured & regulated hunting, notwithstanding).
    Last edited by DaveH; March 31st, 2010 at 07:34 PM.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  15. #14
    Member Array shorty82's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Winter Garden, Florida
    Posts
    93
    Quote Originally Posted by Bandolero View Post
    Stated as well as, if not better, than a lawyer could put it.
    Thanks. I guess I'm better at translating Legalese into English than I thought. Helped that the regulations are written out pretty plainly.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    730
    My concern is the lakes the Corp makes. Here in WV we have many Corp dams that make lakes that are used for recreation. The Feds buy all the land and make the lake then lease parts of it back to states to build state parks. I have never seen a sign that says Corp property except around the Dam itself. But they own the property or at lest the Federal Government does. Does that make the whole lake off limits? Yes Federal Property in some instances does allow the carry of firearms. National Forests is legal as long as the state the National Forest is in says its OK. National Parks are OK now if you are legal in the state the Nat Park is in. I have emailed and sent snail mail to the Corp and can't get an answer.

    I have to say I have never heard or read about anyone getting arrested on a lake in WV that the Corp owns the Dam on. But I would like to know.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Can you carry concealed on Corp of Engineers Lakes
    By showmebob in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: January 9th, 2013, 10:55 PM
  2. VA Hospital...Federal Property
    By SelfDefense in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: July 5th, 2012, 09:36 AM
  3. Is This Considered Federal Property?
    By CT-Mike in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: December 14th, 2009, 04:51 PM
  4. I Now Work on Federal Property
    By jofrdo in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: September 15th, 2007, 11:20 PM
  5. Federal property.. legal or illegal??????
    By Bags in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: March 31st, 2006, 06:01 PM

Search tags for this page

army corps of engineers concealed carry

,
concealed carry army corps engineers
,

concealed carry corp of engineers

,

concealed carry corps of engineers

,
concealed carry federal land
,
concealed carry federal property
,

concealed carry on corps of engineers

,

concealed carry on corps of engineers property

,

concealed carry on federal land

,

concealed carry on federal property

,

corps of engineers concealed carry

,

pepper spray on federal property

Click on a term to search for related topics.