The Search For Mediocrity - Page 2

The Search For Mediocrity

This is a discussion on The Search For Mediocrity within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by azchevy I don't understand the blind Suarez hate. I have been through his training classes so I guess that means I am ...

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Thread: The Search For Mediocrity

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I don't understand the blind Suarez hate. I have been through his training classes so I guess that means I am a "follower" and I carry a 5 shot j frame with a total of 15 rounds . What has that man done to you to make you so angry?
    I don't hate the man, nor does he make me angry, I just think he is over the top with jargon and paranoia driven profit motive. Its a lot easier to sell someone on training, products, whatever, if you persuade them that they are a "CCW Permit Operator" and just seconds from reenacting a scene from Blackhawk Down in the food court at the mall.

    I don't fault anyone for carrying what makes them comfortable or seeking out training to make them and more competent, safe, and effective user of defensive weapons. However, one needs to understand that we are not living in Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. There is a nearly zero chance that any of us will be in a situation where we can justify laying down suppressive fire or doing anything else that real "operators" do.

    I've had my rant about the use of the term "Sheepdog" on this and other forums and the self congratulation that goes on with it, so I'll leave that alone.

    I think the objective of training should be to make one safer, not make one feel better about ones self or superior to others.
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix


  2. #17
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Well, I have taken close range pistol fighting, force on force and other pistol related courses and I feel they are realistically what you can expect in a gunfight. Not once did we get trained in how to lay down suppressing fire. There are many other classes and courses that are rifle based and I did not take them. I am sure they practice suppressing fire in those courses. The ones I took taught me to deal with a threat and proficiently defend myself with a handgun at different encounter ranges. They never once went over room clearing, operator tactics, or suppressing fire. Just weapon retention and dealing with the threat at hand which is going to be key in any self defense encounter where deadly force is necessitated. So I am just unsure of why such generalization, but you are entitled to talk bad about whomever you want for whatever reasons you want, I just question such character without justifiable motive. Thank you for your explanation.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Well, I have taken close range pistol fighting, force on force and other pistol related courses and I feel they are realistically what you can expect in a gunfight. Not once did we get trained in how to lay down suppressing fire. There are many other classes and courses that are rifle based and I did not take them. I am sure they practice suppressing fire in those courses. The ones I took taught me to deal with a threat and proficiently defend myself with a handgun at different encounter ranges. They never once went over room clearing, operator tactics, or suppressing fire. Just weapon retention and dealing with the threat at hand which is going to be key in any self defense encounter where deadly force is necessitated. So I am just unsure of why such generalization, but you are entitled to talk bad about whomever you want for whatever reasons you want, I just question such character without justifiable motive. Thank you for your explanation.
    If the training is good, then that is what counts. Having never been to any of his training myself, I'm not in a position to comment on the actual program. What bugs me about Suarez (and by all means its not just him, the industry is full of it) is his over the top writings that are full of jargon and superior smugness. Everything he has written that I have read has been a real turn off, if his training doesn't reflect that attitude, then that is fantastic news.
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    jeze...you guys that carry revolvers have a chip on your shoulder or what?...lets get a little more defensive...it was a story about lack of knowledge and preparation...try not to overeact...thats kind of what peole believe about gun owners already isnt it?...

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    Actually, the moral of the story is that people who think they are prepared by buying a gun and carrying a gun, but not practicing with a gun as if their life depended upon it are fools.
    I recently watched a security camera video of a jewelery store robbery/shooting. The BG had his hand on his gun in his pocket. The store owner had his hand close to the butt of his concealed handgun. He suspected something was about to go down The BG turned and drew. The owner had not practiced enough because he never got his gun out of the holster. The BG fired 4 times, scoring 4 hits. As the owner lay bleeding on the floor, the BG reached down and ripped the owner's Rolex off his wrist. The BG put the muzzle of the gun to the owner's head and pulled the trigger. The owner is alive this day because the BG's gun was empty by that time.

    The owner wasn't alert enough.
    He didn't take positive action soon enough.
    He didn't practice enough.

    I practice, I train. I'm situationally aware. If the SHTF and my heart is in my throat and my pulse is about 200, I hope to be able to react automatically to the danger.

    Civilians? As a soldier fighting in Vietnam once said, "There are no civilians."

  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    A good story for preparing your mind as well as your body, train all you want, but don't forget to train your mind folks. Shooting at all different targets, taking all the classes in different types of shooting is great, but unless they train the mind at the same time to act in those situations, you'll end up like the gentleman in this story and it doesn't always have everything to do with being a civilian, I've known LEOs and Combat Military Veterans who have frozen before because the mindset was not there initially, luckily it did come and and things turned out for the better.

    This is a good discussion, I hope it stays that way.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  7. #22
    Member Array charliej47's Avatar
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    Talking An Old guy who has been there and done that!

    I am an Army Vet. I've been trained on numerous weapon systems and individual and squad tactics.

    I read/watch the news everyday when possible.

    What I've observed is that almost all attacks occur up close and personal. We are talking about less that the length of a normal room.

    What I taught and was taught is that you want to come out of the encounter alive and unharmed if possible.

    If you don't practice live-fire and dry-fire, you will not react when TSHTF. Muscle memory will save your life while you brain goes into live or die mode.
    The Second Amendment is about the right to be able to protect oneself from all who would do us harm including Legislators!

    I came into this world screaming and covered in someone Else's blood, don't care if I go out the same way

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngda9 View Post
    Your friends email you stuff like this...wierd. Edit: I just received the same email from Gabe Suarez, who is trying to sell you his training services :)

    This is how most people are, they don't take it too seriously since it'll never happen to them(right?). We all know this....

    Most of us don't like carrying a gun in the first place(I would think)...it's extra weight, can be uncomftorable(yet comforting), and you have to dress around it to conceal. Plus you need to learn all of the laws and spend gobs of money on holsters, safes, ammo, etc. But we do it because we see the need where so many others do not. I would love to not carry...but I realize we don't live in utopia and there are bad guys that would love to do all sorts of bad things to me and my family.

    Carry on.
    I don't carry yet, so I don't have any experience in that area, but I do love guns. Don't get me wrong, I would hate to have to shoot a living person, but guns and shooting/training with guns? I love that.
    Ron Paul 2012

    There are three kinds of Yankees: Yankees, Damn Yankees, and Floridians

  9. #24
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    you guys that carry revolvers have a chip on your shoulder or what?...


    we are all crazy

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    It's about mindset, training is secondary.

    The first thing that caught me was the fact that he was "mediocre". that and the excuse, "I am just a civilian" throughout. IN the end, at the moment of truth, he hesitated and died. But the real reason he died was not because he should have trained more it is because the guy didn't have the mindset in the first place. He clearly was not prepared to take a human life to save himself and his loved ones.

    In short, he looked like food. And in the jungle, when you look like food, you will get eaten.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array SCfromNY's Avatar
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    I think that the email was trying to convey that just the act of purchasing a gun does not make you competent. The 18 year old who puts down $8000 for a 180mph Yamaha is not "ready to race" Training, and I will include IDPA and USPSA in this, rewards proper gun handling, accuracy and a mild form of stress.

    Trainers have their own style and i am sure Gabe Suarez goes a little over the top. Front Sight has it's own "over the top" style. So if the email makes you think about becoming more proficient it has done it's number 1 job. If it helps you decide to train with Gabe then it's secondary goal is accomplished.

    Mind set is important but if you do not prepare with some training all you will be able to do is dream about your ability to react.

    As for revolvers . . A gentleman I shoot with can on a regular basis hit his 24x36 steel plate at 100 yards with his j frame. I would also be somewhat concerned facing Jerry Miculek and his 6 shot revolver with an 18 shop M&P. The superior person will prevail over the superior style,

    Guns and motorcycles are like sex . . .No one wants to admit they need help or training.
    Registration: A prelude to Confiscation and Anarchy.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post

    There are many other classes and courses that are rifle based and I did not take them. I am sure they practice suppressing fire in those courses. The ones I took taught me to deal with a threat and proficiently defend myself with a handgun at different encounter ranges. They never once went over room clearing, operator tactics, or suppressing fire.
    I did classes like that with Tactical Response & Specter Tactical.

    They are much more proactive than most defensive shooting classes.

    Pistol classes generally teach you how to deal with the problem presented to you.

    Rifle classes & CQB classes teach you to be the problem for someone else.

    The better you are at being the problem for the other people, the easier it is for you to deal with the problem coming at you from suprise.

    RE: Suppressive fire - the best form of suppressive fire is well aimed fire. People who just dump magazines without aiming aren't suppressing anything. They are just making themselves targets.

  13. #28
    Member Array Bandolero's Avatar
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    Mindset, tactics, skill with weapon, selection of weapon, conditioning level. Each of these attributes may be the one that is most important at any given moment. You may have all the mindset in the world but if you are unarmed for whatever reason (e.g. travelling to Europe), and being chased by ten all the mindset in the world may not be as valuable as some foot speed. If you wind up out in the open shooting it out, then it may just be the case that your weapons skill is more important than your tactics (e.g. cover). Never get locked in to any hierarchy of elements of combat. Be flexible so you can flow as required.

    Was it Mike Tyson who said "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face?"

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Law enforcement and military get much better training as part of their job. We civilians have to pay out the anus for training and at the end of the day... it's for inferior training. The CCW class (like the driving test) is to make sure you know the minimum laws and to test whether or not you can actually physically handle a gun.

    To have the mindset as a civilian of taking down a threat you could have escaped from is a good way of winding up dead. It is up to the individual whether or not he is going to be a hero but he has no say in whether or not he would die a hero.

    If I can escape out the back with family, I sure as hell am not going to take on terrorists or gang bangers putting my family in further danger and getting myself killed. It's not all cases where the best solution is to hold your ground and fight it out. It won't do much good if your mindset is splattered all over the floor.

    If anything this story makes you think. Whenever you enter a store, room, or even church... learn your way out. Being able to know where exits and where concealment is in a place you frequent is a good idea. Being able to find fire exit signs is good for places you don't visit often.

    Being able to be on alert with the first sign of trouble is crucial. If you hear someone scream it is likely too late.

    This email listed in the first post I took had the tone of it's better to not to carry a gun at all then to have one and not pay for training classes. It also had an idiotic stereotype gun store owner that forced a revolver on John Smith. The situation in the email John Smith decided to take on a threat he was not prepared for. Honestly if someone had a rifle and I had a pistol... I wouldn't be prepared either. More then arms reach away Rifle>Pistol.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bandolero
    Was it Mike Tyson who said "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face"?
    Yes it was. This especially rings true for people who believe their "training" and "tactics" would prepare them for a situation like the one depicted in the email. Having confidence is good. Being overconfident is bad.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  15. #30
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Some replies have touched on the subject of situational awareness. I am 68 years old, lived most of my life in the urban areas of NYC and NJ and NEVER had an occasion where the thought of a firearm ever crossed my mind in my daily activities. I consider myself a smart guy (graduate engineer) who is always thinking ahead, be it on the street or in a car (never had an accident). I do not go to places that I think can be trouble, I leave places where I perceive possible trouble, am always looking 3 cars ahead in traffic and at potential pedestrian places in parking lots and streets where potential problems could come up and bite me--I avoid them and I believe that 68 years have proven me right. Only in the last 2 years have I ever touched or owned a firearm and understand my limitations and the limitations of my firearms and act accordingly. I have my CCWP and it is the only course that I have taken. I practice and feel confident, within limits, as to my ability with my chosen firearm(s). I anticipate that any slime out there is better armed and better prepared than me and will act accordingly to avoid confrontation, if possible. In my house I lock my bedroom door and if someone enters at night, all other areas of house only contain "stuff", which is insured and not worth my life. I call 911, activate car alarm, and wait. If the securely locked bedroom door is defeated I am now in reasonable fear mode and will end the confrontation. I really believe that most of the members to this forum may write with more hubris, when sitting at home on a computer, on "what ifs" but in the end they will rather run away from and not to confrontation if the situation allows. Just sayin. Peace everyone.

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