AZ Constitutional carry update - Page 4

AZ Constitutional carry update

This is a discussion on AZ Constitutional carry update within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In my view it’s a significant victory in the overall sense that other States may follow. It only takes a few States to set the ...

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Thread: AZ Constitutional carry update

  1. #46
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    In my view it’s a significant victory in the overall sense that other States may follow. It only takes a few States to set the example. Very few politicians want to be ‘first’ to do anything controversial. However, if they can ride on the coat tails of a few more gutsy representatives, then perhaps we’ll see a return to more freedoms. Though I can’t sight specific numbers, it has been fairly well established, that when gun rights go up, crime rates come down. As such, I believe this does have an affect on ‘day to day life’ of the citizenship.

    Regards,
    Dan O.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
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  2. #47
    Member Array danielf's Avatar
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    I agree, it is a great victory for our rights. Ide like to see this spread all ove the US. I though, will still keep my CCW permit valid and up to date dispite this new bill.
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  3. #48
    Ex Member Array targus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
    Vermont is not listed as a state that honors their permit because no one needs a permit/license to carry in Vermont. That is why Handgunlaw.us has 32 states listed that AZ Permit/License holders can legally carry in.
    What about Alaska?

  4. #49
    Ex Member Array targus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutz4utwo View Post
    Remember that a permit is still required by federal law to posses a firearm or ammo within 1000' of a school. The federal law exempts holders of state permits...
    What about people without a permit? Or they live in a communist state where they cannot get one even if they wanted? What about these same people who live and/or own businesses within 1000' ft of a school? There's houses/neighborhoods right around elementary schools everywhere.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutz4utwo View Post
    Remember that a permit is still required by federal law to posses a firearm or ammo within 1000' of a school. The federal law exempts holders of state permits...
    Ammo is not listed in the statute.

    But to further specify...federal law exempts holders of permits issued by the state in which said school zone is in. So a non-red permit would not exempt a person.

  6. #51
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    ??? re: nutz4utwo

    Quote Originally Posted by nutz4utwo View Post
    Remember that a permit is still required by federal law to posses a firearm or ammo within 1000' of a school. The federal law exempts holders of state permits...

    A small victory, but will make little difference in day to day life.
    You raised a really interesting issue and a reliable answer to your concern is needed.

    How does this issue play out in both Vermont and Alaska? Are there actually arrests and convictions, or does "common sense" somehow prevail.

  7. #52
    Ex Member Array targus's Avatar
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    And, my question...again... What about people living, working and/or owning businesses within these school zones and can't get a permit from their state? Sure, there's probably some exemption for guns/ammo in their residence, but what about as soon as they hit the road to go to the range, hunting, travel, etc?

  8. #53
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    Training options?

    Overall, I'm excited about constitutional carry.

    The big thing missing, to me, is the training I got from the Texas CHL class on the laws surrounding the use (and threat) of deadly force. While I'm no hothead, including a short section on non-violent dispute resolution was a can't-hurt thing, either.

    Has anyone heard of any work afoot within the private sector in AZ to offer (voluntary) classes on these topics? I would think a 2 hour class would give people contemplating unlicensed carry great peace of mind. And if, god forbid, you are involved in a shooting, having a course like this under your belt would help establish you as one of the more thoughtful individuals out there, not a Saturday night gang banger.

    I know AZ has had unlicensed OC for a long time. However, there may be a lot of non-CHL people who were not interested in OC but may now be interested in CC.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by targus View Post
    And, my question...again... What about people living, working and/or owning businesses within these school zones and can't get a permit from their state? Sure, there's probably some exemption for guns/ammo in their residence, but what about as soon as they hit the road to go to the range, hunting, travel, etc?
    Sorry..I thought i posted a quote to answer your question...

    (2)
    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and

    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;


    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

  10. #55
    Ex Member Array targus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhenriksen View Post
    The big thing missing, to me, is the training I got from the Texas CHL class on the laws surrounding the use (and threat) of deadly force. While I'm no hothead, including a short section on non-violent dispute resolution was a can't-hurt thing, either.
    I agree with you on this in spirit. There should be a basic competency test people need to pass before carrying a firearm (...here we go on the 2nd A issue...) just like getting a drivers' license . Please, spare me the "God given right" defense thing and how driving is a privilege. I GET IT. However, to carry/use/own/operate such a deadly device in public should require SOME demonstration of competency. I did my initial Arizona CCW course at the Gunsite Academy in Paulden. There was this cute little thing in my class but, oh my God was she ever scary with a firearm. Absolutely no clue on how to operate it, muzzle control, etc. She was next to me for some of the drills and she'd stand there honking on the trigger because she forgot to take the safety off. Malfunction after malfunction, too, which really started to piss other students off because she needed so much attention as she couldn't clear them herself. She had a Walther PPK/s and wound up finishing the course with something someone else loaned her...a Glock. I'm sure she ended up carrying that PPK/s anyway because it was so "cute"...her words.

    Because of things like that, I foresee a lot of people like her, or old ladies chucking their nightstand .38 snubbies in their purses, or doofuses in general CCing "just because they can and it don't cost nutin" now... People who wouldn't CC before because they didn't want to get "caught" and/or it was too "expensive" or too much of a PITA to get a permit. They NEED to understand the severity of using a gun, even if they don't shoot it, in public and that it is NOT like on TV where they can pull it as a threatening gesture and everyone will magically bow down to their wishes. How they CANNOT just reholster it and go about their merry way with no expected police involvement because they didn't "shoot anyone". Ask 100 people in general what "brandishing" means and I'll bet well over 80 of them couldn't even give an adequate definition...

    I also fully believe there will be a LOT more stories of people having NDs in Walmart (or wherever), guns falling out on the floor and other such "whoops!" moments. I know AZ has had OC for a long time, but think about it. In this day and age, MOST carriers prefer to carry concealed. And, those legal carriers, by and large (definitely in AZ), DO have a permit (i.e. training) to stay legal. How many "regular joes/josephines", who are not currently CCing, are really going to strap on a revolver or 1911 and open carry it? Or even a tiny gun when it's SOOO much easier to throw it in a pocket/purse, but then they'd be breaking the law as it stands TODAY and they know it. Very few, ESPECIALLY the ones who won't take the time to get training. Now, with unlicensed, untrained CC...that will change... Refer to the "most people would rather CC" as explained above.

    There should be a basic safety and legal course offered either for free or at a very small cost, like the hunter safety education programs. And (here come the FLAMES...)... YES, you should still have to carry a card saying you are "qualified" to CC. But, no background checks, fingerprints, etc. Just walk in, show your training certificate and walk out. No different than getting a motorcycle license...

    And, that's my take on this whole "everyone can now CC and put ZERO effort into learning a damned thing about it" in AZ thing coming down the road... I'm sure my view on this will be very unpopular, but I really don't care...

  11. #56
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    I GET IT.
    No. I don't think you do. You've got your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Your argument says that you believe in 'guilty until proven innocent'. Might as well apply this angle to every article in the Bill of Rights; you have to apply for the right to exercise your rights. Outrageous.

    Enough with the driver's license analogy, apples and oranges.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  12. #57
    Ex Member Array targus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    No. I don't think you do. You've got your opinion, and you're entitled to it.
    Really? Did I not state that in my last sentence?

    Enough with the driver's license analogy, apples and oranges.
    And here we go with the flames already. I already MADE my driver's license example "disclaimer" for the people whom I KNEW would zero in on that...like you, zacii, for example...the very next poster...

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by marksman View Post
    For we Arizona residents that support SB 1108, it's important that you write to Governor Jan Brewer to let her know you support her signature. Make sure to state why you support it. It's easy, only takes a few minutes. Just go to Arizona Governor Jan Brewer and click on "Contact the Governor". Be professional (no drama); short and sweet, and pithy in your comment. If you are a native, bonus points!
    Politicians LISTEN to their constituents more than you think. It's their measure of success; they can point to the communications received as to why they support legislation. If you've never contacted an elected official before, MAKE THIS the first time (as did I) and it will leave you feeling good! (PS: The opposition listens too; it may not change their vote but it may moderate their tenor).
    Done! I've always liked Arizona since my first visit there way back in the late 70's, but I like it even more now.
    The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. ~ Albert Einstein

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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by targus View Post
    I agree with you on this in spirit. There should be a basic competency test people need to pass before carrying a firearm

    I also fully believe there will be a LOT more stories of people having NDs in Walmart (or wherever), guns falling out on the floor and other such "whoops!" moments.

    There should be a basic safety and legal course offered either for free or at a very small cost, like the hunter safety education programs. And (here come the FLAMES...)... YES, you should still have to carry a card saying you are "qualified" to CC. But, no background checks, fingerprints, etc. Just walk in, show your training certificate and walk out. No different than getting a motorcycle license...

    And, that's my take on this whole "everyone can now CC and put ZERO effort into learning a damned thing about it" in AZ thing coming down the road... I'm sure my view on this will be very unpopular, but I really don't care...
    An interesting side-effect of this AZ constitutional carry is the light that it shines on our own thinking. People here (and elsewhere in the pro-gun community) seem to be thinking of only two options: an unregulated free-for-all or Government mandates.

    What ever happened to peer pressure, community expectations, culture? Are we just too large a population for that to work anymore? Bear in mind that I'm an outsider (Tx) looking in to AZ, so I can't chip in on this effort personally... What if the AZ CDL and other organizers in the state created a PSA campaign to encourage non-CHL carriers to get some low-cost training, and spread the message that those who fail to do so are not Good People? I'm thinking about press releases to media, establishing a recommended curriculum for minimum training on use of force laws for distribution to all the gun stores/ranges, little signs that gun retail outlets can display preaching the virtues of people who get training, kind of like a Gruff the crime dog theme but for adults. Figure out a pithy phrase/title/slogan for minimum training that Responsible Adults do, and use that branding consistently.

    I'm only aware of the AZ pro-gun lobby getting this constitutional carry passed, but haven't heard of any accompanying effort to promote *voluntary* training. If that's the case, then you're much more vulnerable to a backlash if there does turn out to be a bunch of NDs, road rage shootings, etc. I honestly don't think (and hope) there will be; Texas legalized unlicensed carry w/in your vehicle a few years ago, and there hasn't been a rash of shootings over parking spaces @ the mall. But a PSA push for voluntary training seems like chicken soup - how can it hurt?

  15. #60
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    Hello 'targus',

    We all have to take written and practical driving tests in order to get our driver’s license, but it doesn’t stop thousands of people from driving drunk every single day; sometimes, with devastating consequences. Nobody wants to look at this paradox because it isn’t as horrific as being shot. The logic is simply flawed. More people are physically violated every day from unlicensed baseball bats, candleholders, and kitchen knifes than guns. ‘Perception trumps facts, every time’…

    Regards,
    Dan
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

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