AZ Constitutional carry update - Page 5

AZ Constitutional carry update

This is a discussion on AZ Constitutional carry update within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think a class should be mandatory for CC. I like the permit system here in Arkansas. It's not a violation of the constitution and ...

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Thread: AZ Constitutional carry update

  1. #61
    Member Array Boykinhntr's Avatar
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    I think a class should be mandatory for CC. I like the permit system here in Arkansas. It's not a violation of the constitution and any non felon can carry. I don't think it's too much to require a class that teaches applicaple laws.


  2. #62
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    Gun licenses and Dive Cards

    Quote Originally Posted by rhenriksen View Post
    What ever happened to peer pressure, community expectations, culture? Are we just too large a population for that to work anymore? Bear in mind that I'm an outsider (Tx) looking in to AZ, so I can't chip in on this effort personally... What if the AZ CDL and other organizers in the state created a PSA campaign to encourage non-CHL carriers to get some low-cost training, and spread the message that those who fail to do so are not Good People?
    Decades ago the SCUBA equipment manufacturers and retailers developed a system in which they simply refused to sell SCUBA gear or fill the tanks of folks who lacked training. Initially training was offered through the Ys; later through a couple of other organizations as well--e.g., Professional Association of Diving Instructors and National Association of Underwater Instructors. No diver's card, no air. It was real simple. Where diving tours were operated it boiled down to no diver's card, you don't get on the boat.

    Government was not involved I don't think, unless in some states they after the fact adopted laws to require the PADI, NAUI, or Y cards.

    I think it is pretty much anyone's right (as a matter of personal freedom) to go diving. Yet the training is essential. I don't like the idea of completely untrained individuals carrying or using guns either, and think some training--not dissimilar to the Hunter Safety courses and the Texas CHL class are important.

    One possible solution would be for the FFLs to band together and simply refuse to sell to folks who did not get the "gun" equivalent of a diver's certification. That would provide a "free market" non-government involved approach to promoting gun safety. The gun manufacturers could enforce it too as did the diving equipment manufacturers.

  3. #63
    Ex Member Array targus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boykinhntr View Post
    I think a class should be mandatory for CC. I like the permit system here in Arkansas. It's not a violation of the constitution and any non felon can carry. I don't think it's too much to require a class that teaches applicaple laws.
    I agree, but watch out... The "any ol' thang is 'fringement cuz I'm 'Murrican..." crowd is out in force...

  4. #64
    Ex Member Array targus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I don't like the idea of completely untrained individuals carrying or using guns either, and think some training--not dissimilar to the Hunter Safety courses and the Texas CHL class are important.
    That is EXACTLY what I said regarding the hunter safety education courses... And got slammed for it...promptly...

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    Done! next the state imigration law, then Sheriff Joe for President!
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by targus View Post
    That is EXACTLY what I said regarding the hunter safety education courses... And got slammed for it...promptly...
    Hi targus,
    No 'slamming' here... Actually, under a different thread or forum relating to this same topic, I proposed a self-regulatory measure whereby gun shops and/or gun ranges could offer discounts to permit holders vs. non-permit holders. This would help encourage the public to seek training and certification while growing their business. Likewise, this approach would be voluntary and without government intrusion. Moreover, I suspect that anyone wanting to travel out of State with their gun, will likely want to maintain/acquire a permit. Personally, I'm quite proud of my permit and I don't plan on giving it up.

    Naturally, there will be a few cases where some idiot will shoot someone over nothing, (just like now) and the media will lock-on to it like a pit-bull.

    Regards,
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Decades ago the SCUBA equipment manufacturers and retailers developed a system in which they simply refused to sell SCUBA gear or fill the tanks of folks who lacked training. Initially training was offered through the Ys; later through a couple of other organizations as well--e.g., Professional Association of Diving Instructors and National Association of Underwater Instructors. No diver's card, no air. It was real simple. Where diving tours were operated it boiled down to no diver's card, you don't get on the boat.

    Government was not involved I don't think, unless in some states they after the fact adopted laws to require the PADI, NAUI, or Y cards.

    <snip>
    You're right, in the SCUBA world, that's how it works...in theory. As a *very* active diver I can assure you that there are many, many ways to step around that restriction and lay your hands on equipment and/or gas fills without actually having a SCUBA certification. I've seen it happen many times, and I myself have walked into more than a few dive shops and gotten both equipment and breathing gas without ever having to show any credentials. I'm sure that the same thing would happen in the gun world if a similar practice was implemented.

    Brian

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    re: Benthic

    Quote Originally Posted by Benthic View Post
    You're right, in the SCUBA world, that's how it works...in theory. As a *very* active diver I can assure you that there are many, many ways to step around that restriction and lay your hands on equipment and/or gas fills without actually having a SCUBA certification. I've seen it happen many times, and I myself have walked into more than a few dive shops and gotten both equipment and breathing gas without ever having to show any credentials. I'm sure that the same thing would happen in the gun world if a similar practice was implemented.

    Brian
    Well, there are cheats and fools in every walk of life. If you go diving untrained, you drown or blow your lungs, and sometimes take others with you. There's an analogy there somewhere with going armed and untrained. Get killed, go to jail for an illegal shoot, hurt innocents.

    Somewhere there is a middle ground between what AZ has done and what other states such as TX are doing. There is a way to improve safety, enhance the odds that someone carrying is doing so responsibly and lawfully, and that if they use their weapon they did so under lawful circumstances.

    If forced to choose between voting for "anything goes" without training or state mandated training for CHLs, I'll go with the state having a role. What I was trying to do was suggest a potential middle ground. It would not be perfect. But neither is AZ's new approach nor Illinois' highly restrictive approach.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Ammo is not listed in the statute.

    But to further specify...federal law exempts holders of permits issued by the state in which said school zone is in. So a non-red permit would not exempt a person.
    I stand corrected. I recalled something about ammo in the statue, I just looked and although it is mentioned as traveling in interstate commerce, ammo is not listed as prohibited in a school zone.

    ...don't want to get too off topic, but those persons in AZ who choose to carry without a state issues permit should be aware of this federal restriction. "The Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990"

    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by targus View Post
    I also fully believe there will be a LOT more stories of people having NDs in Walmart (or wherever), guns falling out on the floor and other such "whoops!" moments.
    Post the stories of these things happening in Alaska or Vermont.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCKREAPER View Post
    Post the stories of these things happening in Alaska or Vermont.
    Yeah, the same type of comparison was made when gas stations changed over to self-service only e.g. more fires and spills...
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  12. #72
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    re: Glockreaper

    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCKREAPER View Post
    Post the stories of these things happening in Alaska or Vermont.
    I don't think it is correct to assume that either the Alaska or Vermont experience will be the Arizona experience.

    Both of these other two have very small populations and lack major urban centers with highly dense concentrations of people. Also, even within AZ, what works in Sedona may not work in Glendale.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by targus View Post
    This is great for we Arizonans, but it is STUPID to still need the permit to carry concealed into a restaurant that serves alcohol when you can CCW everywhere else.
    Virginia tuck?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I don't think it is correct to assume that either the Alaska or Vermont experience will be the Arizona experience.

    Both of these other two have very small populations and lack major urban centers with highly dense concentrations of people. Also, even within AZ, what works in Sedona may not work in Glendale.
    BINGO. Well said. AK and VT have also been doing it a LOT longer than AZ, so expect some "teething problems"...

    It is really that hard to see where a sudden influx of even more untrained people (not just the untrained in the OC crowd, now) carrying guns very well may result in a HIGHER probability and occurrences of accidents?

  15. #75
    Ex Member Array targus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Virginia tuck?
    Didn't that just go away recently in VA?

    And, nope... Even though OC is legal without a permit, you cannot OC at ALL (or, in the near future, CC without a permit) in any establishment serving alcohol for consumption on site in AZ. It MUST be concealed, so no "VA tuck" type maneuver to "swipe" from CC to OC before going into such an establishment here.

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