Streetcar concealed carry in New Orleans?

Streetcar concealed carry in New Orleans?

This is a discussion on Streetcar concealed carry in New Orleans? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi Guys, I've looked and searched everywhere, but I cannot find any info as to whether it is legal to CCW on public transportation in ...

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  1. #1
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Question Streetcar concealed carry in New Orleans?

    Hi Guys,

    I've looked and searched everywhere, but I cannot find any info as to whether it is legal to CCW on public transportation in Louisiana (more specifically, the streetcar system in New Orleans). Is this OK in LA?

    Thanks!

    -Bill


  2. #2
    Member Array jabbo's Avatar
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    Man I was in New Orleans,La July 26,2008 and was shot over ten dollars. If and when I do decide to visit again I'll have guns on me at all times. People it is rough there I promise you.

    Check-out nola.com wdsu.com wwltv.com there's a murder just about everyweek.

  3. #3
    New Member Array don63's Avatar
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    Yea it's fine. In fact i recommend it.
    Undoubtedly some think that the Second Amendment is outmoded .... That is perhaps debatable,... but what is not debatable is that it is not the role of this Court to pronounce the Second Amendment extinct.
    U.S. Supreme Court 2008

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Yep. It was Dec 1992 when I was last there. When I parked near an overpass to go down to Bourbon street, I found out later that was where a serial rapist / killer had been ditching women's bodies. Don't know if he was ever caught. Then, some homeless looking guy tried to "go for" my 14 yr old daughter, which resulted in me pounding his chest to get him back away from her... and when he didn't stop, "almost" resulted in me pounding him into the pavement. And... it goes on and on....

    I would stay armed....

  5. #5
    Member Array jabbo's Avatar
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    By the grace of GOD I was able to dodge 12 rds from a nine mm. gun. But was shot in the left heel in and out left upper arm/elbow which the bone was fractured and right calf as I ran. GOD was really looking out for me. Remember my words if anyone needs to go there dont go with-out 2 guns on your person.

  6. #6
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    I know, New Orleans is worse than New York or Chicago for murder: "A closer look at The National Archive of Criminal Justice Data indicates that per-capta homicide rates over the last 30 years on average of major cities, New Orleans' average per capita homicide rate of 52 murders per 100,000 people overall (1980-2009) ranks highest among major U.S. cities.". Scary place!

    -Bill

  7. #7
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    From the LSP website:

    Prohibited Locations
    R.S. 40:1379.3 (N) states that no concealed handgun may be carried into and no concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this Section shall authorize or entitle a permittee to carry a concealed handgun in any of the following:
    A law enforcement office, station, or building;
    A detention facility, prison, or jail;
    A courthouse or courtroom, provided that a judge may carry such a weapon in his own courtroom;
    A polling place;
    A meeting place of the governing authority of a political subdivision;
    The state capitol building;
    Any portion of an airport facility where the carrying of firearms is prohibited under federal law, except that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, if the firearm is encased for shipment, for the purpose of checking such firearm as lawful baggage;
    Any church, synagogue, mosque or similar place of worship;
    A parade or demonstration for which a permit is issued by a governmental entity;
    Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.
    Any school "firearm free zone" as defined in R.S. 14:95.6.
    The provisions of R.S. 40:1379.3 (N) shall not limit the right of a property owner, lessee, or other lawful custodian to prohibit or restrict access of those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued under this Section. No individual to whom a concealed handgun permit is issued may carry such concealed handgun into the private residence of another without first receiving the consent of that person.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  8. #8
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info, guys.

    Good to hear you are OK, Jabbo. That was a rough incident you went through.

    Eagleks, good you were there to protect your daughter -- New Orleans (and many big cities) are full of mean and nasty -- and crazy -- people.


    Thanks ppkheat, I am already familiar with those particular laws, but since LA's restaurant carry law is so darn FUBARD up (one law says CCW in a restaurant that also sells liqueur is fine, while another makes it a VERY serious offense to do so ), I just wanted to make sure.

    But on another tact with this, after reading ppkheat's post, does anyone know if the streetcars themselves, as well as many businesses in and around New Orleans, are specifically posted against concealed carry (i.e., with a "no guns" sign )?

    Thanks,

    -Bill

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    Will B. Droppy,

    The New Orlans Street Car System home page mentions nothing about firearms. Under Conduct on their Street Cars it states:

    Conduct:

    * Unruly behavior or unsafe acts of passengers will result in immediate termination of service with no refund.

    Under LA Law they can post their Street Cars I believe. Their rules also state No Alcohol so you don't have to worry about carrying in a place that serves alcohol.

    Which brings up another point. I spent over a 1/2 hour on the phone with the Officer in charge of Concealed Handgun Permit Unit in December. Our chat was over carrying in places that serve alcohol can you legally carry there. LA has some screwy laws. They passed their CCW law but didn't remove other laws about firearms on the books. But the CCW Law says no place that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises. In their old law it talks about different establishments etc. But I was told by the Man in Charge of the Concealed Handgun Permit Unit that it is illegal to carry in a place that serves alcohol for consumption. Like I said the laws are screwed up and it would most likely take a court case to straighten them out.

    I am just reporting what I was told by their man in charge. That is all I know. Others will point out laws that say it is OK. Again I am just telling you what I was told.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

  10. #10
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Thumbs up My interpretation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
    Which brings up another point. I spent over a 1/2 hour on the phone with the Officer in charge of Concealed Handgun Permit Unit in December. Our chat was over carrying in places that serve alcohol can you legally carry there. LA has some screwy laws. They passed their CCW law but didn't remove other laws about firearms on the books. But the CCW Law says no place that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises. In their old law it talks about different establishments etc. But I was told by the Man in Charge of the Concealed Handgun Permit Unit that it is illegal to carry in a place that serves alcohol for consumption. Like I said the laws are screwed up and it would most likely take a court case to straighten them out.
    Hi Gary,

    Thanks for your always rock solid and accurate advice! To definitely play it safe, I completely agree with you, as well as with the officer who is in charge of LA's Concealed Handgun Permit Unit, to not carry in a restaurant that serves any alcohol.

    However, since this law that utterly prohibits the carrying of weapons wherever alcohol is served is the older law (as you say), I would think that the new law, which specifically allows CCW in such a facility -- and was passed as part of Louisiana's shall-issue carry law -- would take complete precedence over the older law. It just wasn't removed from the books (as you also say).

    Below is part of the print-out that I will carry with me, just in case I must enter such a dining establishment (i.e., if the wife insists that she wants to eat some decent food!), as this is what I feel -- through my (non-lawyer) research -- is actually legal in LA, rather than just follow the Louisiana CCW officer's safe advice and interpretation of LA's CCW law (I know you can't actually legally approve of the following because you are not the Attorney General of LA, but I think the below is pretty darn safe, as well as legal [of course, my legal fees in getting exonerated, if I were actually arrested by a bored LEO and prosecuted by an even more bored prosecutor, would be quite steep; but I simply don't see how the courts -- or even a non-rookie LEO -- could possibly ignore the specific legal passages that were passed WITH Louisiana's shall-issue law].

    PS: As an FYI, I don't really care so much that I can't carry a firearm while in such a restaurant, but many times there is simply no place to secure your piece when you are a visitor to a town (unless you want to leave the weapon in your hotel room while you walk around doing touristy things, which completely defeats it purpose!).


    MY PRINT-OUT:

    LOUISIANA

    (Act 4 of the First Extraordinary Session of the 1996 Legislature...)

    Prohibited Locations
    R.S. 40:1379.3 (N) states that no concealed handgun may be carried into and no concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this Section shall authorize or entitle a permittee to carry a concealed handgun in any of the following:

    A law enforcement office, station, or building;
    ETC, ETC;
    Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.
    ETC, ETC;


    Note:

    RS 26:71.1 — Class a [RETAIL] permit; definitions
    (1) Class A-General:
    (a) A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to a retail outlet where beverage alcohol is sold on the premises for consumption on the premises by paying customers. Such an establishment must be equipped with a permanent wet bar equipped with a non-movable sink and a backbar or similar equipment for public display and to inform the public of brands and flavors offered for sale.
    (b) A Class A - General retail establishment shall be staffed by a bartender whose primary duty is to open and/or prepare beverage alcohol products for consumption on the premises by paying customers, or prepared with an appropriate lid or cover on the container for take out service. Such an establishment must meet all state and local health and zoning requirements as set forth by the state and by parishes and municipalities where a Class A - General retail outlet is located.
    (c) Repealed by Acts 1995, No. 1016, 2.
    (d) A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to an establishment where the state law provides that no person under the age of eighteen years is allowed on the premises except as provided in R.S. 26:90(A)(8)(a)*.

    * R.S. 26:90: Acts prohibited on licensed premises; suspension or revocation of [RETAIL] permits


    -Bill

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array The Fish's Avatar
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    Will;
    I'll be in the "Big Easy" in a few weeks and I'm confused.
    What is the NEWER law which allows concealed carry in a place that serves booze??
    The bolded section you posted says to me no carry in any part of a licensed premises.
    " Keep On Packin' On The Bimah"

  12. #12
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fish View Post
    Will;
    I'll be in the "Big Easy" in a few weeks and I'm confused.
    What is the NEWER law which allows concealed carry in a place that serves booze??
    The bolded section you posted says to me no carry in any part of a licensed premises.
    Hi Fish,

    Unfortunately, this is where things gets a little complicated (), since LA has many different classes of establishments that can serve alcohol, but only specifically prohibits the carrying of a concealed weapon in a Class A-General establishment (IMHO).

    Class A-General's are defined as: "A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to an establishment where the state law provides that no person under the age of eighteen years is allowed on the premises", as well as the other specifics I mentioned in the above post.

    You can see why Gary can only safely recommend as 'no carry' in any alcohol selling establishment, due to these incredible legal complexities...

    However, my (non-lawyer/non-judge) interpretation -- as well as that of many other "armchair lawyers" -- feel that it is legal to carry in a restaurant that allows those under 18 to enter, as long as you do not sit in the bar area, and you do not imbibe any spirits.

    -Bill
    Last edited by Will B. Droopy; April 9th, 2010 at 05:57 PM. Reason: ADDED: Proper "Class A-General" designation

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array The Fish's Avatar
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    Thanks Mr. D;
    Question;
    Is a normal restaurant which serves alcohol Class A?
    It seems to me that a place like Olive Garden would not exclude kids.
    Of course,I'm not going to N.O. to eat in places like the Olive Garden.
    " Keep On Packin' On The Bimah"

  14. #14
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fish View Post
    Thanks Mr. D;
    Question;
    Is a normal restaurant which serves alcohol Class A?
    It seems to me that a place like Olive Garden would not exclude kids.
    Of course,I'm not going to N.O. to eat in places like the Olive Garden.
    Hi Fish,

    Well, this is where it goes from complicated into the extremely complex, but the general consensus of those who have looked into this, and who have done so for the exact same reasons that you and I are also interested in these arcane and confusing laws, is that only bars will normally have Class A-General only licenses. That should exclude places like the Olive Garden (but, again, not only am I not a lawyer, but I am not from LA either).

    Here is just a small sample of the complexity involved, and why it took me a long time to come to the (non-professional) conclusions I -- and others -- have come to on CCW in LA restaurants, and why I condensed all this into the simplified print-out I described above. (Below taken from the LA law statutes on liquor licenses):
    -------------
    71.1. Class A permit; definitions

    The commissioner shall issue the following four types of Class A retail liquor permits:

    (1) Class A-General:

    (a) A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to a retail outlet where beverage alcohol is sold on the premises for consumption on the premises by paying customers. Such an establishment must be equipped with a permanent wet bar equipped with a non-movable sink and a backbar or similar equipment for public display and to inform the public of brands and flavors offered for sale.

    (b) A Class A - General retail establishment shall be staffed by a bartender whose primary duty is to open and/or prepare beverage alcohol products for consumption on the premises by paying customers, or prepared with an appropriate lid or cover on the container for take out service. Such an establishment must meet all state and local health and zoning requirements as set forth by the state and by parishes and municipalities where a Class A - General retail outlet is located.

    (c) Repealed by Acts 1995, No. 1016, 2.

    (d) A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to an establishment where the state law provides that no person under the age of eighteen years is allowed on the premises except as provided in R.S. 26:90(A)(8)(a).

    (e) Notwithstanding the provisions of Subparagraphs (a) through (d) of this Paragraph, the commissioner may issue a Class A - General liquor permit to any bona fide commercial film theater which had a Class A liquor permit on January 1, 1994.

    (f) Notwithstanding the provisions of Subparagraphs (a) through (e) of this Paragraph, the commissioner may issue a Class A - General retail permit to any retail establishment for consumption on or off the premises. Such establishment must meet all state and local health and zoning requirements as set forth by the state and by parishes and municipalities where the retail outlet is located. A Class A - General retail permit issued pursuant to the authority granted by this Subparagraph shall not be deemed or qualify as a prerequisite for the issuance of any other type license or permit issued by the state or any political subdivisions thereof.

    (g) The licensed premises of a Class A-General retail permit shall be able to accommodate a minimum of twenty-five patrons and contain no less than three hundred seventy-five square feet of public habitable floor area.

    (h) The commissioner shall promulgate rules regarding requirements related to the number and location of public restrooms to be used in conjunction with the licensed premises of each Class A-General retail permit.

    (i) Any Class A-General retail permit application submitted prior to September 1, 2001, shall not be required to meet the qualifications set forth in Subparagraph (g) of this Paragraph.

    (2) Class A-Restaurant:

    A Class A-Restaurant permit shall be issued only to a "restaurant establishment" as defined by R.S. 26:73(B) and issued to a facility in conjunction with a Class "R" restaurant permit under the provisions of R.S. 26:73.

    (3) Class A-Special:

    (a) A Class A-Special permit shall be issued to any facility which is situated on state-owned land, and which is being developed or operated by the state for public purposes, without the necessity for a local permit from the parish or municipality, notwithstanding the provisions of R.S. 26:81(B)(1) and (C), 273(A)(1), 281(B) and (C)(1), 582 and 595, if all other pertinent qualifications and conditions of this Title are satisfied, and such establishment meets all state health and zoning requirements as set forth by the state.

    (b)(i) The provisions of Subparagraph (a) of this Paragraph shall apply only to the Sabine River Authority Conference and Recreational Facility, located in Ward 3, Sabine Parish, Louisiana and shall be applicable only after the following proposition has been submitted to a local referendum election to the voters of Ward 3, Sabine Parish at the congressional general election to be held in 1994, with a favorable vote of a majority of votes cast, to wit:

    "Shall the sale of alcoholic beverage of both high and low alcohol content for consumption on the premises be permitted at the Sabine River Authority Conference and Recreational Facility in Ward 3, Sabine Parish, Louisiana?"

    (ii) This Subparagraph shall be the sole and only enabling act necessary to call this election, notwithstanding the provisions of R.S. 26:587.

    (4) Class A-Restaurant-Conditional:

    (a) Any retail establishment holding a Class A-General permit issued pursuant to this Section may be issued a Class-A-Restaurant-Conditional permit, provided it meets the requirements of R.S. 26:73(B)(1), (2), (3), (5), and (6) during the hours from 7:00 a.m. until 11:00 p.m. each day of operation.

    (b) Notwithstanding the provisions of R.S. 26:90(A)(3)(a) or any other law to the contrary, any establishment which qualifies and receives a Class-A-Restaurant-Conditional permit may permit any person under the age of eighteen on the premises between the hours of 7:00 a.m. and 11:00 p.m.

    (c) No additional fee shall be charged for the application or issuance of a Class-A-Restaurant-Conditional permit.

    (d) Notwithstanding any other provision of law to the contrary, a retail establishment located at a public or private golf course licensed to operate video draw poker devices pursuant to the provisions of Chapter 6 of Title 27 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950 prior to January 1, 2004, may be issued a Class A-Restaurant-Conditional permit regardless of the amount or the percentage of food or food items sold at that establishment provided that the establishment meets all other criteria required by the provisions of this Chapter.

    Acts 1994, 3rd Ex. Sess., No. 63, 1, eff. July 7, 1994; Acts 1994, 3rd Ex. Sess., No. 130, 1, eff. July 7, 1994; Acts 1995, No. 1016, 2; Acts 1997, No. 378, 1; Acts 2001, No. 214, 1; Acts 2001, No. 1188, 1, eff. June 29, 2001; Acts 2004, No. 918, 2.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    It is all messed up and the Legislature should straighten it up. How I read it you can carry in a restaurant like Red Lobster or Friday's but then the people in charge say you can't. Not the first time I have disagreed with what I think the law says and what those in charge say. But I have to go with what those in charge say.

    I will add that it was not the Firearms Unit that said you can't carry in places that serve alcohol. I was told it was the legal unit. I don't know if that was the legal unit of the LA State Police or someone from the AG's Office or some other office in LA Government.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

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