Scenario time (happened 2 weeks ago)
This is a discussion on Scenario time (happened 2 weeks ago) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by razor02097
Putting aside the mistake of picking someone off the side of the road... and the fact she took her to a ...
April 9th, 2010 12:14 PM
+1 push him or his car out of the way. Drive over the grass, over the mailbox whatever it takes. Unfortunately the aunt did not think ahead when she stopped, she should have made sure she couldn't be blocked in.
Originally Posted by razor02097
April 9th, 2010 12:16 PM
All other prior decisions aside up to the point of the BG approaching the car. I'd see just how much 4 wheeler / battering ram the car had in it. Auto repair is still going to be cheap considering the other possibilities. If the BG is kind enough to get in the right place he can be neutralized in the process. Stay in the car, use the car, leave in the car.
April 9th, 2010 12:24 PM
+1 on not know how the girlfriend/wife is going to react.
Originally Posted by bladenbullet
There are stories about cops being assulted by the abused spouse, when they try to remove the abuser.
Another story I am reminded of is a cop being sued for using excessive force because he struck the rapiest with the butt of a shotgun while he was penetrating the woman.
April 9th, 2010 12:37 PM
Based upon your scenario, you say that the dirtbag pulled in front of her...and just WHY couldn't she back up? That's not clear to me.
First of all, there are all kinds of people who are completely unprepared in this world. This may sound cruel, but it is NOT my job to defend them. They made choices that they have to live with...abusive husbands/BF's that they refuse to leave, no phone, no weapons, etc. Not my problem...
Your aunt was not prepared...no phone, no weapon, and no strategy.
She did have a 3000 pound weapon, and could have used it as a plow if the dirtbag kept trying to gain entry.
Going anywhere today without preparation is just begging to be a victim, and there are plenty of predators out there who will figure you out.
Now IF...your aunt had been prepared, she would have been on the cell phone and at that point she could have drawn her snubbie. If the dirtbag did not back off, then she should have considered the 'car plow' option. If the guy broke the window, then he'd be getting a 'lead' message. Disparity of force would certainly be arguable here (depending upon the state).
I have seldom picked up strangers, but I have done so once when an infant was involved. My wife was with me and the subjects in question were even a little questionable looking...but I stopped. My firearm was extremely ready. The story we were told seemed plausible. There was a husband, wife, a young baby (weeks old), another child, and a 'grandma'. I felt that this would have been an odd 'crew', so I offered to take one of them to a gas station down the road...I knew the area very well.
The family was extremely appreciative, and I was happy to help.
If you were to ask me what would I do in a scenario where I had no cell phone and no weapon, I would have to reply...I guess what ever the 'prepared dirtbag' told me I had to do......but that isn't going to happen.
My eyes have been opened by reading, training, and practice. I'm an old man, slow, fat, bald, and ugly (which is probably a good thing...makes me look like a mean target, so pick another). I can certainly fall prey to one of these desperate local dirtbags, but I won't be an EASY target. I am very alert, extremely suspicious, and not at all friendly to STRANGERS. I have a plan, and it does not cover being a cop for others.
If someone else in a parking lot chose not to be armed, why then, when trouble starts do these victims always call someone with a gun?
Let me repeat...we all make choices...we must all live by them.
My job is to get me and my family home safely each and every night.
I do not make plans for your family, that's YOUR job.
Last edited by RETSUPT99; April 9th, 2010 at 03:44 PM.
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April 9th, 2010 12:41 PM
I would have certainly drawn my weapon. I don't know if I would have pointed it at him or merely made clear that I had one (IN MY HAND). If he broke the window or reached into his waistband, he would be getting shot. I'd be terrified in that situation and definitely in fear for my life.
April 9th, 2010 01:56 PM
Don't stop....drive around....or turn around. Anything more than that, and the guy is a clear, demonstrated threat. If he has a weapon...drop him. You are in a no win....
- know the difference
is a fancy name for crappy fighter
You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know
April 9th, 2010 02:59 PM
I would have drawn for sure, if he backed off, then I would drive away and dial 911, if he tried to gain access then all bets are off!
Every State is different, so mine says my vehicle is my "castle", same as my house, I have a legal right to be there, so I would be justified, just because you don't see a weapon DOES NOT mean he is un-armed in my book! Gaining entry into my vehicle is a threat and intent to harm to me and anyone else that is with me, period!
Other people may or may not agree, but that is my opinion and I would have the law behind me. I would be fearing for my life!
Ruger LC9 (when the girlfriend lets me carry her gun)
"First Duty is To Remember"
April 10th, 2010 03:18 PM
I know a weapon wasn't mentioned, and what I'm about to say is based on Texas law...may be different where others are....but if a person reasonably believes they threatened with imminent death or serious bodily harm they are justified in using deadly force.
Originally Posted by Adameeski
Yes she was sitting in the driver seat and the dirtbag was at the passenger window, but I think the lady was in imminent danger that could easily be articulated on several points:
1. the male was the aggressor
2. the woman was beat up, holding a child, and was begging for help from anyone and saying he was beating her up
3. the driver was elderly (age and size disparity of force)
4. the car was blocked in and she couldn't drive away from the guy threatening them at the window
5. he was beating on the window, whether it takes one or a hundred strikes to break it is of no matter...his intent from the victim's point of view is however
6. his verbal threats against the driver and the evidence of injuries he had given to the woman already. These would make me as a LEO believe the lady was in fear of her life/serious injury and in fear of the woman's (and baby's) life/serious injury. If she drew on him she was justified in displaying the handgun. If he didn't comply with her demands to back the heck away and continued attempting to gain entry into her vehicle a shooting would be justified.
Now I'm not saying she should have blasted away from inside car immediately...but drawn showing him the gun and that she ain't taking his crap/get the heck away from us and giving verbal warning to get away....heck yes. Then if the guy didn't leave and continued trying to break into the car it would only aid in the justification for shooting him.
Maybe extending the gun in front of the woman is an incredibly stupid idea as you said, maybe not. Maybe the original victim would react and her love for this dirtbag would overtake her brain and she would not want the aunt to shoot him, maybe not. But to me, allowing the guy to break out the window and continue his attack on the woman, or make good on the threats he just made against me is even more stupid.
I also think her getting out of the car with gun in hand telling him to get away from them and her car is a possible option. This would allow her to point the gun at him, not be in front of the lady's face/by the baby and have clear shot. The aunt could articulate this in her actions/statement also. If the guy is dumb enough to not comply and come around the car at the aunt after being given the warning and seeing the gun and he gets shot, then the aunt is still justified.
Yes, I have seen someone attempt to break a car window, I've seen suspects break car windows, I've seen fellow officers break car windows, I've broken car windows myself. Some suspects broke them with a fist on the first shot, some took multiple hits from an Asp, and some were easily busted on the first strike with my knife/glass breaker. Thats not a reason to not shoot someone that is threatening you while you are in your car unable to drive away from the threat as was stated in the original scenario.
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April 10th, 2010 11:44 PM
I'm sure that would vary by state. We were specifically taught in our carry permit class that a scenario where somebody has a knife, baseball bat, club, or just fists that is threatening while standing on the opposite side of a vehicle or barrier, the permit holder would not be justified in using deadly force. They would have to move to the same side of the car/barrier before they were presenting the "imminent" part of serious bodily harm or death. In other words, if somebody is in a car and an unarmed person is yelling and banging on the window, they are not in "imminent" danger. I am sure that a DA could argue that you could have rammed the car that was blocking you in or should have waited to see if he grabbed a weapon in order to harm you. The man in the story left, after all, so his threats in the OPs story, were empty. That definitely wasn't imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death, again, he left. If it were imminent, then some external force would have had to stop him. Regardless though, to me it isn't only about whether or not you are justified in a court of law in using deadly force. To me, it is also about whether or not I want to live with the fact that I killed an unarmed man, in front of his wife/girlfriend and baby when he might have just eventually given up and walked away, as this man did. Again, he wasn't even armed. Had he reached in his pocket or inside of a coat, then the scenario changes. We all have our lines that must be crossed before we personally feel that we have truly reached that level of danger. I wasn't in that car, and truthfully, it is difficult to say what I would do after factoring in all of details that we don't know from the OPs story. Such as, was he just beating on the window hard or was he obviously trying to break the window. Those details certainly change the scenario IMO. I am sure that since you are a LEO, you have been in way more situations than I ever will be and would hopefully be calmer and clearer thinking than the average CCW permit holder. I only hope that you wouldn't be intentionally encouraging somebody to shoot somebody that was not even in direct contact and appeared unarmed, just because they were yelling and threatening.
Originally Posted by 64zebra
I believe that it all comes down to the realization that neither you nor I would ever allow ourselves to be boxed in inside of our vehicle, with a stranger in our passenger seat, with a man beating our window and screaming threats, without a weapon, and without a cell phone. So really, the answer is that you nor I would ever have to deal with this exact situation.
I have huge respect for LEO and I truly appreciate all that you do. You choose to put you life on the line in order to protect me. To do that day in and day out takes something that I don't have. Thank you for what you do and thank you for being willing to debate issues and still remain civil.
"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head." --Winston Churchill
April 11th, 2010 12:24 AM
Break the glass and your a dead man!
April 11th, 2010 02:19 AM
I would first attempt to leave, either driving forward or by backing up. If that was not possible, I would stay in the car with my windows rolled up, and draw my gun. I would not point it at him unless he broke the window, but he would certainly see it. I would consider my safety in danger with him threatening me and pounding on the window.
"We are the people our parents warned us about!" J. Buffett
April 11th, 2010 02:55 AM
+1 for using vehicle as your primary weapon/means of escape.
April 11th, 2010 03:27 AM
Given the scenario, one that would likely never happen to me as I don't carry a weapon without also having some form of a communication device, nor do I give rides to strangers in my personal vehicle.
With that said, I think 64 covered it best when he put in bold the age and disparity of force factor. If my avenue of retreat, or lane to safety has been blocked off by the criminal aggresor I will use what tools I have available to me to cut a lane of safety until responding help can be summoned.
if that means I run over the bugger with my truck, shoot him or stay in the car and blow the horn, so be it. I will do what I have to do. At that point only one thing matters, I'm going home alive. The aggresors actions will determine what happens to him or her.
Would I exit the vehicle? Most likely not as it provides another barrier between me and the badguy.
Would I ram his vehicle with mine in an attempt to flee? There's good odds on that.
Would I shoot him? Maybe, but he stands a good chance of looking down the barrel of my gun and has until my finger gets to the trigger to decide what he wants to do with the rest of his life, as I will have made that decision for him if his actions don't cease, providing his actions have put me in fear of my life.
Notice, shooting is the last option I offered. That is because it truly is an option of last resort. If I was an elderly woman I may be inclined to shoot sooner given the disparity in strength and age.
April 11th, 2010 04:28 AM
I would just point out that probably what you learn in your ccw permit class is not the "end all, be all" information regarding the force continuum. In fact, it is likely the absolute bare minimum. There is so much more to learn about using lethal force, the law, and just what exactly constitutes being in a lethal force scenario than what is presented in any given required permit course.
Originally Posted by Adameeski
You may choose not to present your pistol in this specific scenario and that is certainly your choice. However, another person may feel they are at the tipping point in a situation such as this. And several people have articulated very valid legal theories in which they would be justified.
In this specific scenario, you have many aggravating factors which would tend to justify at least presenting your defensive side arm and being prepared to shoot if he continued to attempt to gain access.
First, he blocked her vehicle preventing her from escaping. Anyone who actively tries to prevent you from escaping a situation while aggressively slinging threats and attempting to gain entry in order to get at you, automatically places you in jeopardy. They are in essence "taking you prisoner" by intentionally preventing your escape. If you fail to recognize how serious a situation that places you in as the victim, then I don't know what to tell you.
Secondly, you already know who the aggressor is and that he is in an uncontrolled fit of rage and has already beaten a woman with a child to the point where she is flagging down total strangers to be rescued. So you already know he is out of control, enraged and capable of inflicting serious harm even without a weapon. So he is not exactly a total stranger. You have an example of his handy work, battered and bruised, who is crying and terrified of him sitting next to you in your car.
Thirdly, there is an obvious and overwhelming disparity of force. You have a physically large, aggressive, young, healthy, enraged, and out of control male, making verbal threats and attempting to break into the vehicle of an elderly woman after he has already trapped her and prevented her escape.
So again, if you do not recognize this as being a situation where a reasonable person in your aunts position isn't a scenario where one can reasonably be in fear of death or serious bodily harm, then I don't know what to tell you.
You may want to wait until the window shatters and you have microscopic pieces of automotive safety glass in your eyes effectively blinding you before you draw your weapon... but don't think those of us who may choose not to wait are not justified in doing so. I'm not saying that just because you draw your weapon, you must fire at that point... But I think you're mistaken to think that you would be arrested for assault with a deadly weapon if you do draw under those circumstances.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
April 11th, 2010 04:55 AM
Yes, the scenario certainly does change at this point, but will you be too far behind the curve to respond appropriately?
Had he reached in his pocket or inside of a coat, then the scenario changes.
In a dangerous situation I want my gun in my hand, as that is the fastest draw. If I can stop the threat by displaying a weapon, great. If not, I am better prepared to deal with the threat with the gun already in my hand. Most defensive usage of a firearm by non-LEO's involve only the display of the weapon and no shots fired from what I've read.
I don't think anybody here wants to shoot another person, armed or unarmed. The thing is, even unarmed people can kill you or maim you. Like I said earlier, I'm going home alive. Everything else is secondary to that goal.
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