Scenario time (happened 2 weeks ago)

This is a discussion on Scenario time (happened 2 weeks ago) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Adameeski I'm sure that would vary by state. yep, this is the big kicker, hence the reason I always try to put ...

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Thread: Scenario time (happened 2 weeks ago)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski View Post
    I'm sure that would vary by state.
    yep, this is the big kicker, hence the reason I always try to put in my posts that each state is different and what I'm saying is Texas law, some are the same as others states....others are not

    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski
    We were specifically taught in our carry permit class that a scenario where somebody has a knife, baseball bat, club, or just fists that is threatening while standing on the opposite side of a vehicle or barrier, the permit holder would not be justified in using deadly force. They would have to move to the same side of the car/barrier before they were presenting the "imminent" part of serious bodily harm or death.
    In other words, if somebody is in a car and an unarmed person is yelling and banging on the window, they are not in "imminent" danger.
    I would not think for a second that a person with a knife, bat, or club 8-10 feet away from me on the other side of a car would not be considered a deadly threat, thats way too close and is definitely inside the "you crossed the line, you're getting shot" place. I don't know what is taught in TN permit classes....but geeesh, no 21ft rule taught in the permit classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski
    I am sure that a DA could argue that you could have rammed the car that was blocking you in or should have waited to see if he grabbed a weapon in order to harm you.
    maybe...but then the size/type of suspect vehicle vs. size/type of victim vehicle would come into play, if dirtbag has a F250 4x4 and aunt is in a chevy cobalt...she is going to have issues ramming that truck to make a getaway

    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski
    The man in the story left, after all, so his threats in the OPs story, were empty.
    well sure...we can all say that now...hindsight is 20/20...but hindsight can get you killed and shouldn't be in our thought processes when it comes to someone threatening us

    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski
    That definitely wasn't imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death, again, he left. If it were imminent, then some external force would have had to stop him.
    again this is after the fact...the aunt (or us) can't say this at the time it was happening; what would we be saying if the guy would have busted the window and was reaching in with his hand choking his victim? That was a couple of seconds away from coming true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski
    Regardless though, to me it isn't only about whether or not you are justified in a court of law in using deadly force. To me, it is also about whether or not I want to live with the fact that I killed an unarmed man, in front of his wife/girlfriend and baby when he might have just eventually given up and walked away, as this man did.
    word bolded for emphasis....he might have had a knife, he might have busted the window, he might have taken the kid by force from the mother, he might have come around to the driver's side and assaulted the aunt for helping the vic, I could keep going with might, might can get you killed
    Adam...you bring out a good point in this paragraph too.....
    To me, it is also about whether or not I want to live with the fact that I killed an unarmed man
    if an unarmed man makes the decision to escalate a situation, make a person believe they are going to be harmed and deadly force is used against him....it is his fault for the situation happening....not the victim's
    Its all about the totality of the circumstances, all the stuff I listed numerically in my previous post, what (in detail) is the vic seeing, hearing, and what threat is being presented, how big is the perp vs the size of the vic, the perp had the opportunity to cease and leave too, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski
    Again, he wasn't even armed.
    we know that now, the aunt didn't know that then, along with all the other stuff I listed in my previous post; he could have used his hands as weapon to inflict serious bodily injury or death in a split second

    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski
    Had he reached in his pocket or inside of a coat, then the scenario changes. We all have our lines that must be crossed before we personally feel that we have truly reached that level of danger.
    yep, we all have our lines, we all have to know when we have a disparity of force, we all have to know what our states say about what we can and can't do in certain situations


    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski
    Those details certainly change the scenario IMO.
    agreed....its all in the details, none of these things are ever simple

    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski
    I only hope that you wouldn't be intentionally encouraging somebody to shoot somebody that was not even in direct contact and appeared unarmed, just because they were yelling and threatening.
    we shouldn't allow people to get in direct contact;
    if they are yelling/threatening it just adds to the list of things to justify using force by an elderly female against a male that is bigger, stronger, and threatening, after he has just assaulted another female, and is blocked in unable to drive away
    its these details that will make or break a situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski
    So really, the answer is that you nor I would ever have to deal with this exact situation.
    nope, I wouldn't have arbitrarily picked up the woman, would have been on the cell phone when she asked me for help, and that guy would have been convinced to get away from us

    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski
    I have huge respect for LEO and I truly appreciate all that you do. You choose to put you life on the line in order to protect me. To do that day in and day out takes something that I don't have. Thank you for what you do and thank you for being willing to debate issues and still remain civil.
    thank you for the kinds words, and yes...its always good to discuss things in a civil manner, thats the best way to learn about issues and think rationally
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  3. #32
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    Adameeski, Doesn't TN have a "Castle Law" also? Does it extend to your vehicle?

    You have to understand that someone trying to gain access inside your vehicle (or home) with you in it isn't going to open the door to just talk to you about the weather! He is showing "intent" to do bodily harm in my opinion, weapon or not!

    Like others have said, after he has broken the glass with it in your eyes or already with the door open, hands on you pulling you out is way to late to draw your weapon.

    I understand you not wanting to have to kill or even hurt someone else, but it would be "his" decision, not yours! Rational people just don't block other vehicles and scream and try to open cars that are not theirs! Even if they haven't just beaten their spouses! That is why I would draw my weapon and it would be aiming center mass at him! What happens after that is his choice again. If he chooses to live, great, he leaves, I dial 911, but if not... I am going home alive!
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  4. #33
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    No offense to the OP, but I get leary of baiting questions like that from a new member, especially as their first post.

    IMO, first major mistake was agreeing to take the victim to her (victims) sisters house. Should have gone to the first public place that has a phone to call the police, if not a police station or hospital.

    I can not comment on what I would have done in that situation as I would not have put myself in that situation.

    You need help and the aggressor is gone, fine. We go where I choose, or you are on your own.
    Sticks

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    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  5. #34
    gtv
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    I think that the fact that the BG has blocked the road (he is attempting to illegally detain you) and has already assaulted the passenger, would justify your drawing your gun. Having said that, I do not think I would draw in this instance. The biggest problem with drawing in this situation is the passenger: as others have stated, you have absolutely know way of knowing how she will react when the gun is drawn. These two may have been happily trying to kill one another a few minutes ago, but as soon as you step in, the "us vs. them" mentality may kick in. What if she freaks out and tries to grab the gun? Do you shoot her? Maybe not intentionally, but the chance is there of an accidental discharge. Remember the baby is there too. God forbid junior should catch a stray bullet while you are struggling with mommy over the gun.

    I do not understand why the driver could not have just thrown the car into reverse and put some distance between herself and the BG. I think that the one ton weapon you already have at your disposal may be your best choice in this situation. If there is nothing preventing you from going in reverse, step on the gas and give yourself some room. Houses nearby? Lay down on the horn, heck, Morse code "SOS" on it if you have to, but get someone's attention... maybe they will call 911 because "some idiot is blaring their horn driving backwards down our street."

    If nothing else, this is a good example of why everyone should have a variety of defensive tools -- but most especially a cell phone -- in their "pocket arsenal".
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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Bunny View Post
    Adameeski, Doesn't TN have a "Castle Law" also? Does it extend to your vehicle?

    Gun Bunny,
    As I've been taught by a "qualified" instructor, TN has a castle law, however, it applies only to your residence. We were specifically told it does not apply anywhere else. Maybe somebody else from TN has some further insight than I. I would be interested in the responses.
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    In Defense of a 3rd person

    In the defense of a 3rd person will allow you to draw your weapon to protect. If you think the 3rd person was in harms way, which she did state, you can legally pull your weapon out. As soon as the man blocked her in with his vehicle, he used the car as a weapon to cause harm on the 2 of them. Getting out and banging on the window of the car making threats would be charge #2.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post

    My summation...
    First of all, there are all kinds of people who are completely unprepared in this world. This may sound cruel, but it is NOT my job to defend them. They made choices that they have to live with...abusive husbands/BF's that they refuse to leave, no phone, no weapons, etc. Not my problem...

    If someone else in a parking lot chose not to be armed, why then, when trouble starts do these victims always call someone with a gun?

    Let me repeat...we all make choices...we must all live by them.
    My job is to get me and my family home safely each and every night.
    I do not make plans for your family, that's YOUR job.
    This is also my viewpoint. In Florida, the packet whcih comes with your CWP has a pamphlet saying someing like:
    " The issuance of a CWP and carrying a weapon does NOT make you a vigilante policeman."
    I would not have interfererred with the scenerio other than calling 911, adn observing from a distance. The gun is there to protect my family, close friends and myself, and I make make it available to my hand, but not displayed " in a reckless/intimidating manor"
    I have a cell and two-way radio equipment in my vehicle and would easily contact someone of authority.

    One of my buddies is a city cop. He said that when they get a "domestic call" they send two officers. One to handle the problem, and one to watch the 1 st ones backside. More cops are injured on these calls than any other. Think about it: the visibly armed officer is attacked by both spouses; they would not hesitate to attack a good samaritan.

  9. #38
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    Your aunt should mind her own business, and never go to bingo again........

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtv View Post
    I do not understand why the driver could not have just thrown the car into reverse and put some distance between herself and the BG. I think that the one ton weapon you already have at your disposal may be your best choice in this situation. If there is nothing preventing you from going in reverse, step on the gas and give yourself some room. Houses nearby? Lay down on the horn, heck, Morse code "SOS" on it if you have to, but get someone's attention... maybe they will call 911 because "some idiot is blaring their horn driving backwards down our street."
    Funny, I got to type this response twice in one day.

    I think the answer to why the little old lady didn't just reverse out of the situation, is that she is simply too passive to think of doing anything like that.

    I once was in a similar situation like this. I was on a date with a young lady, when a drunk/druggie decided to try to crawl through the driver side window while we were stopped. I was in the passenger seat, and energetically suggested to the young lady who was driving to accelerate out of the situation. Her ENTIRE response to the situation was to shriek at me to to "stop yelling at me" and crying. I was forced to shove the girl out of the way, shift to Drive, (she'd thrown it into Park) cross over the console with my left to run the the accelerator and tap the van the druggie/bad guy and his friends had stopped in front of us a bit out of the way.

    In the process, I rolled the druggie/drunk young felon on the street, and almost got to run over his friends, who were trying to stop us. I steered the vehicle from the console until I thought it was safe, then traded seats and drove to the police station and reported it.

    The thing is, that girl (and probably the aunt in the story) are just not wired to do anything to protect themselves or others.

    The only thing I can say is that "sometimes" these people can be trained to take rudimentary steps to protect themselves, but they have to be walked through it, first. So try to recreate what happened with your aunt, if she'll even agree to that, and maybe show her ways to solve that particular problem. Who knows, a light bulb may come on.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    I still think ramming and driving away is the best option.
    Tactical advantage -- you're in a car, he's not.
    Knowing is half the battle.

  12. #41
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    hindsight...never take someone home...you may be walking into a trap and end up the victim of a crime...if you feel you need to get someone to safety choose a hospital, fire station or best bet a police station...you dont enter someone elses turf after youve already involved yourself in their situation...its trouble....the abuser isnt going to want to take this to a public place that is normally close to law enforcement...think before you respond to someones request...you are the one offering assistance...you are in control...otherwise they walk...Quote...bladenbullet

    Based upon your scenario, you say that the dirtbag pulled in front of her...and just WHY couldn't she back up? That's not clear to me.
    Quote...ret


    I would have certainly drawn my weapon. I don't know if I would have pointed it at him or merely made clear that I had one (IN MY HAND). If he broke the window or reached into his waistband, he would be getting shot. I'd be terrified in that situation and definitely in fear for my life.
    Quote..HuttoAG96

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    I would have probably showed him my weapon, (not brandishing under the circumstances), and let him Escalate, or De- escalate the situation from there. then drove miss Daisy to the local cop shop



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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    I think the answer to why the little old lady didn't just reverse out of the situation, is that she is simply too passive to think of doing anything like that...

    The thing is, that girl (and probably the aunt in the story) are just not wired to do anything to protect themselves or others.
    BINGO!
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  14. #43
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    there have been a rash of victim-turned-aggressor robberies cropping up lately.

    i'm NOT a lawyer, and this is *NOT* legal advice, just something to consider.

    there are a number of way one might handle it, but like any encounter, there is no *right* or *wrong* until the totality of the circumstances are viewed. the one sure thing is that this should be an incident report on someone's desk. the SCOTUS recognizes the defense of others from grave or bodily harm as a valid reason for deadly force.

    * BUT *

    if you get out of the car, you have just performed an inflammatory or aggressive act, and quite possibly have opened yourself up to civil lawsuit or criminal charges, depending on jurisdiction and local laws. satying in your car is the best option, followed by a trip to the local magistrate or LE agency for a brief chat on the assailant, the locations(s) involved, his demeanor, description, vehicle, and your belief that someone's life (and potentially you or your car) are in jeopardy. getting out could spin an already volitile situation out of control, and you DON'T know what the other person's mental, physical, or full emotional state are, or his capabilities, the presence of a weapon on his part, etc. additionally, he might be interested in your car or tag, so a violent encounter like this one, while not sure to happen, is a possibility later on. people are strange and capable of anything - else this site has no purpose, right?

    statements like he made followed by an attempt at physical entry into your vehicle do create a valid cause for concern for you and the other party. there is intent there, along with (rather ambiguous) threats, and certainly a DV situation brewing. check with local laws for specifics, but it's better to remain as invisible as possible so as to observe and report later than to take an active role in an unstable situation.

    the act of him blocking you in completely in some jurisdictions could constitute unlawful imprisonment. best left to the lawyers. if this situation was done OUTSIDE OF THE CAR, several things could have occured, but in most cases, *MY* answer is BACK AWAY from the situation and find someone with a cell and DIRECT THEM TO CALL 911 while i prepare for the worst - remember the child. you do not want to be a part of this any more than need be, and while the prevention of a forcible felony is usually enough in most jurisdictions to warrant the use of deadly force, prematurely introducing a firearm into this mix is an inherently bad idea. DV issues are ugly - even LEOs hate them. unpredictable, unstable, explosive, and everything happens WAY TOO FAST.

    a safer bet is to taxi on to the local precinct. hubby is sure to know where sister's house is, and that's introducing a FOURTH party into this little disaster. if she doesn't want to play ball, fine, she's out of the immediate vicinity, and you have a report to make about how you found her anyway.

    it sounds like it worked out well enough (there is no good here) for your aunt, but it's a conundrum, as citizens have a "duty" to report, but that duty usually stops at force unless an imminent threat presents itself. sticky situation. it sounds like your aunt is a genuine good person.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" ~Patrick Henry

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFtrevor87 View Post
    So got a scenario for you guys, draw or no draw.

    My aunt was driving home after bingo at the church a couple weeks ago. There was a stopped car on the side of the road and a lady holding a baby trying to wave her down. My aunt stopped and the lady said "help me, help me, he's beating me." With visible bruises and red marks on her; my aunt let her in the car and the stopped car on the side of the road with the Abuser took off.
    My aunt was pretty scared she didn't know what to really do (and didn't have a cell phone). The lady asked my aunt to take her to her sisters house a few miles down the road. So she did; and on the way back they saw 2 headlights swerve in front of her and forced her to stop. The guy basically blocked her in and she couldn't back out or go forward, she had no means of escape. The guy came pounding on the passenger side window, yelling and screaming. He was saying stuff like "So this is how you want it. I will find you wherever you tried to hide." He kept screaming at my aunt "unlock your doors or you'll be sorry you didn't".
    K so scenario time... picture all this going on to you, with a CCL. What do you do? He never threatened your life (saying he would kill you), but he did say "you'll be sorry" does that constitute great bodily harm? Would you get out and draw on him? What do you guys think?
    Since trying to de-escalate the situtation didn't work, and you had no means of escape, and you were protecting someone with you, I probably would've gotten out and drew on the guy. BUT! would the cops or court see this as "well you could just stayed in your car and kept the doors locked?".

    The end result was he drove off, and my aunt pulled into the nearest house and called the cops. The cops ended up arresting the abuser, the woman who got hit, because they were both drunk and both on probation. The baby went to her sisters. Just would like your inputs as I am rather new to CC.

    Thanks guys
    First, I wouldn't have even stopped.

    But if I was, I would have drew down on the guy the moment he blocked my escape path since it was clear that he was going to do harm and didn't want me to leave.
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  16. #45
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    i am going to assume that the literal police are having a hard time with the whole "he pulled his car in front of hers" thing because the statement "why didnt she just back up" has come up way too many times...

    the lady made a decision to help someone in a very questionable situation and made a poor decision to bring her home...where the assaulting significant other would expect to find her...but lets not paint the poor lady as a complete idiot...

    lets give her the benefit of the doubt and say...for arguments sake she pulled into a driveway to the garage (following this?) and he pulled his car in behind her (which some would describe as in front of her as it blocked the exit of the driveway)...does that help?...

    now lets get to the hummer mentality " why didnt she just ram the vehicle and push it out of the way?" question...i dont know how many of you have actually tried a stunt like this other than what youve seen on tv...but cars (and i'll assume she wasnt driving a supercharged 4wd monster truck) dont just push other cars out of the way without a decent running start and some serious horsepower/torque numbers....so can we just put that to rest?...please...the testosterone is getting thick and it just isnt feesible stuff...

    once the car was blocked in and the assaulting party began his threats and physical aggression the 2 people in the car became prisoners (or hostages in a sense)....there really isnt any reason for them not to fear for their lives...especially the one who was threatened with "it doesnt matter where you go i will find you"...it is kin to kidnapping and definately a hostile environment...you guys complain more about not being able to carry in a peaceful work environment than you have about this predicament...

    waiting for the glass to break means you are going to be showered with thousands of articles of glass (if youre not familiar with side safety glass it is a characteristic of it to break into small almost round pieces that are very uncomfortable to ingest, breath and see with in your eyes) and not in a healthy situation for defensive tactics unless you are wearing protective gear including safety goggles....if you decided to wait until then to draw your gun he already has his hands on you and is probably pulling you out through a relatively small opening where the glass used to reside...take it from me...this hurts...you will be beaten bloody before your hand even remembers where to find your weapon....

    unlike all of the bank and convenience store situations where you were not directly threatened but you decided to draw your weapon and protect the world...in this scenario you are directly threatened with potential bodily harm and have been left with no escape...if there ever was a time to draw and display your firearm now is it...or you might as well have left it home....the fact that he left means the firearm probably would have made him leave sooner...in this case...had the sight of the gun not made him leave you were in for a tough ride anyway and youll be glad you had it out when you did...

    reaching into his pocket during the scuffle (as has been mentioned a couple of times) does not increase your right to draw anymore than him threatening you to begin with...until you identify a weapon the thought process legally is that no weapon is present...but you are already in jeopardy so what are you waiting for?...once he does present a weapon it it already too late...he has made his agenda clear...you are his prisoner and he is making aggressive and threatening moves...now you want to wait and see if you can outdraw him?...

    we go from convenience store armed ninjas to legally trying to figure out when a person being directly threatened as a prisoner by an aggressor who is assumed larger and stronger and already has beaten another woman but we cant draw our firearm?...where is the hypocrisy there?....

    the question wasnt whether she did something wrong...i'm pretty sure she learned a few things from this situation...the question was...you are in the same situation and you are armed...what would you do...screw the cartoons and action flicks everyone...pretend its real life and you are in the car with a guy who has blocked you in (ok...you made a poor decision....its possible)...with a person he has beaten and he is threatening to break into the car...you dont have your cell phone (lets say it failed because youve already made it clear you never go anywhere without it)...you are not driving a supercharged monster truck...and you have a panicking woman in the passenger seat who is being threatened physical harm and she has the bruises to prove its a reality...there is no clear exit and you dont know what the person is capable of....

    by the way...you might try blowing the horn to draw some attention...i'm sure the neighbors have working phones and they are familiar with 911 if they live near this couple...i'm not talking little toots...i'm talking wake the dead stuff....

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