Scenario time (happened 2 weeks ago) - Page 4

Scenario time (happened 2 weeks ago)

This is a discussion on Scenario time (happened 2 weeks ago) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; well said, blade. all of it, but particularly the oozing testosterone....

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  1. #46
    Member Array ScotWarrior's Avatar
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    well said, blade.

    all of it, but particularly the oozing testosterone.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" ~Patrick Henry


  2. #47
    Member Array Adameeski's Avatar
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    WOW, Bladenbullet, that was REALLY well put! Excellent, passionate argument.
    ...Adam

    "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head." --Winston Churchill

  3. #48
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    I will just say as Biker did, I will go home alive, doing whatever it takes to ensure that.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    inow lets get to the hummer mentality " why didnt she just ram the vehicle and push it out of the way?" question...i dont know how many of you have actually tried a stunt like this other than what youve seen on tv...but cars (and i'll assume she wasnt driving a supercharged 4wd monster truck) dont just push other cars out of the way without a decent running start and some serious horsepower/torque numbers....so can we just put that to rest?...please...the testosterone is getting thick and it just isnt feesible stuff...
    Really? A normal passenger car can push just about any car on the road, especially if the other car is just in "park". Ever been to a demo derby? I'm calling ******** on your calling ********. ;)

    Again, the Aunt in question wasn't going to do anything to protect herself or the other woman. But the OP put us in Auntie's shoes. And "us" has been through a couple protective driving courses, and "us" now sees our car as a defensive weapon. You aren't out there to push the car to Kentucky, or smash it flat, all you need to do is to create clearance to leave. But I bet good money that Auntie could've gotten out of the situation by driving out of it; she just wasn't equipped to do so.

    Don't get locked into "It's time to go to guns" before you exhaust your options. I'd take a dented fender and broken head/tail light before I'd take having go throught the hassle of having to face shoot a creep.

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis View Post
    The moment the guy started banging on my window he'd get ONE warning. If he didn't retreat immediately I'd assume my life was in danger and act accordingly.

    I dont care how hard someone is banging on my window....if I can drive away, I will. I'd make it obvious I'd use my car to force my way out...if that was her only weapon, that's what I'd use.

    In my case (not her scenario):

    I would at least have my cell phone...and would use that to hopefully discourage him.

    And if not commuting to/from work...I'd most likely have my gun and make sure he saw it. I'm pretty sure that would get him to leave us alone.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    I liked the suggestion about taking the woman directly to a police station or hospital.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I dont care how hard someone is banging on my window....if I can drive away, I will. Perhaps that's what you meant by 'act accordingly?" It's what appropriate for me anyway.

    I cant afford to lose my house to legal fees.

    I think it would be a pretty easy scenario if one of the options were to drive away. I think most people would choose that option if they could.

    Driving away was not an option. From the original post below....

    Quote Originally Posted by USAFtrevor87 View Post
    So got a scenario for you guys, draw or no draw.

    ...and on the way back they saw 2 headlights swerve in front of her and forced her to stop. The guy basically blocked her in and she couldn't back out or go forward, she had no means of escape.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #53
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by USAFtrevor87
    So got a scenario for you guys, draw or no draw.

    ...and on the way back they saw 2 headlights swerve in front of her and forced her to stop. The guy basically blocked her in and she couldn't back out or go forward, she had no means of escape.based on what she said when she told the story
    It's "possible" that the Aunt really, honestly was blocked in. But I doubt it, strongly.

    I get that the OP wants to force this into a "shoot/don't shoot" scenario, but as many of us have pointed out, her actions prior to the confrontation lead some of us to doubt the accuracy of the "no means of escape" thing.

    I know, we weren't there, but in my experience, folks who speak in absolutes tend to lack the ability to generate alternatives. Thus, the continual disbelief by the folks who keep posting "but why didn't she drive out of it?"

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I think it would be a pretty easy scenario if one of the options were to drive away. I think most people would choose that option if they could.

    Driving away was not an option. From the original post below....

    Apologies, I did revise my post noting she was blocked in.

    And stated I'd be willing to use my car as my weapon. Hopefully the threat of such would work, if not, I'd be doing some pretty definite ramming and pushing moves against his vehicle I (that would get to most guys).

    If it was me, I'd have a cell and possibly my gun (if it wasnt commuting). So he'd know cops were on the way (from seeing me calling 911) and I would draw my gun as well when he pounded on the windows. But she didnt have those options so could use her vehicle as a weapon of self defense.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    It's "possible" that the Aunt really, honestly was blocked in. But I doubt it, strongly.
    I agree....I'd be looking for a way, any way, to drive out of there, even if it meant pushing/ramming another car out of the way.

    (Done it before, but I did have a pick up truck).
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #56
    gtv
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    the question wasnt whether she did something wrong...i'm pretty sure she learned a few things from this situation...the question was...you are in the same situation and you are armed...what would you do...screw the cartoons and action flicks everyone...pretend its real life and you are in the car with a guy who has blocked you in (ok...you made a poor decision....its possible)...
    The problem with this type of scenario is that it is being posed to people who have taken steps to ensure our safety beyond those which the average person takes. We are being asked to place ourselves in a situation that most of us would never find ourselves in.

    I mean, look at what would have to happen for me personally to be in this scenario: not only did the cell phone I carry at all times has failed, the old "retired" cell phone I keep in the glove box for emergencies has also failed... I am driving a vehicle that is so small/underpowered/so totally lacking in any off-road capability that I may as well be on foot... my SA has had such an epic fail as to allow myself to be so completely blocked in that I am rendered 100% motionless... in fact, the only thing that I have done right in this hypothetical is that I do happen to have my pistol on me. I mean, seriously, I have made so many poor decisions up to this point that I probably deserve to get my butt kicked.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    i am going to assume that the literal police are having a hard time with the whole "he pulled his car in front of hers" thing because the statement "why didnt she just back up" has come up way too many times...
    I guarantee that if this comes down to a shooting, you better have a dang good excuse as to how you were completely blocked in, because the DA as well as your own attorney are going to be hounding you on that point.
    "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day... Teach a man to fish and he'll spend all his time in the basement tying flies and neglecting his personal hygiene." -- Jimmy James

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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtv View Post
    The problem with this type of scenario is that it is being posed to people who have taken steps to ensure our safety beyond those which the average person takes. We are being asked to place ourselves in a situation that most of us would never find ourselves in.
    +1 on that!
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  13. #58
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    Never pick up strangers, you never know what they are up too!!!!!!!
    SC-CWP
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    It's better to have it when you need it then need it and dont have it.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by foots402 View Post
    Never pick up strangers, you never know what they are up too!!!!!!!
    Not only picking up a stranger, but voluntarily parachuting oneself into an obvious domestic dispute. That's a double fail.

    Sure, the woman is screaming and claiming she is being abused, but when you put yourself between the two warring parties, they'll both turn on you. I don't know how people get beyond age 25 without learning that ages-old scenario.

    Every LEO-to-be learns that in the classroom, and almost everone who's been in the military knows how it plays out. Heck, they even have an entire television channel dedicated to it (Lifetime TV).

  15. #60
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    I'm not busting chops of people that say don't draw or can't draw, I'm just throwing out more food for thought....

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Really? A normal passenger car can push just about any car on the road, especially if the other car is just in "park". Ever been to a demo derby? I'm calling ******** on your calling ********. ;)

    Again, the Aunt in question wasn't going to do anything to protect herself or the other woman. But the OP put us in Auntie's shoes. And "us" has been through a couple protective driving courses, and "us" now sees our car as a defensive weapon. You aren't out there to push the car to Kentucky, or smash it flat, all you need to do is to create clearance to leave. But I bet good money that Auntie could've gotten out of the situation by driving out of it; she just wasn't equipped to do so.

    Don't get locked into "It's time to go to guns" before you exhaust your options. I'd take a dented fender and broken head/tail light before I'd take having go throught the hassle of having to face shoot a creep.
    I agree....IF I'd be able to drive through something to get out, however if we go off the OP scenario that she is blocked in and can't get out--we go off that hypothetical, as you said the OP puts us in the Auntie's shoes so we're blocked in.

    as for 'us' having gone through defensive driving....thats a good point if you're able to do the task, but if truly blocked in it brings up another point.....
    I'll flip the table around so to speak, from a LE perspective.....we've had 2 incidents in the last year, one just a week ago where a BG was blocked in by a cop car in front and back. The BG smashed back into the patrol car to his rear, turned wheel and smashed into front car, turned wheel, smashed back again and at this point was at enough of an angle to slip around the first car. I think we all can see how this is done and that most of us could probably do it if able to. However if we're not able to then it puts us in the OP scenario so think of it as out of play. Now we are sitting in the situation of the aunt.
    I think thats what a lot of us are missing in this discussion. We all know what we would liked to have not done in the first place to get in the situation, and we would like to ram/drive around the obstacle, but thats not the original scenario so keep that in mind.

    Now, if we are attempting to ram back/forth...what is the BG doing during this time? If we go back to my LE scenario where we were outside and BG was behind the wheel.....we have guns out, possibly busting windows with batons, and as this past week's situation unfolded one of my brother officers pumped 4 rounds into the car. Now picture you as the driver and the BG is busting your window out as you're trying to ram out of the deal and he starts shooting.
    The other scenario our agency had recently was same setup with car in front and back. Suspect had a performance car and was attempting to ram back/forth to get away, smoking tires, and sliding rear end of car at officers, one fired one shot killing driver.
    This could very easily be one of us behind the wheel with BG outside and we're trying to ram out with guy busting window trying to get inside or worse.

    I'd hate to be found dead in my beat up car with my pistol still in its holster.

    Bladenbullet was on target (pun intended) saying
    once the car was blocked in and the assaulting party began his threats and physical aggression the 2 people in the car became prisoners (or hostages in a sense)....there really isnt any reason for them not to fear for their lives...especially the one who was threatened with "it doesnt matter where you go i will find you"...it is kin to kidnapping and definately a hostile environment..
    waiting for the glass to break means you are going to be showered with thousands of articles of glass (if youre not familiar with side safety glass it is a characteristic of it to break into small almost round pieces that are very uncomfortable to ingest, breath and see with in your eyes) and not in a healthy situation for defensive tactics unless you are wearing protective gear including safety goggles....if you decided to wait until then to draw your gun he already has his hands on you and is probably pulling you out through a relatively small opening where the glass used to reside...take it from me...this hurts...you will be beaten bloody before your hand even remembers where to find your weapon....
    I've been on the other end of breaking out a window on a car with someone inside trying to get away, reaching in and pulling them out of a car while fighting. Dangerous for both involved.
    If I'm on the good side, and I'm behind the wheel...my gun is coming out as soon as I feel threatened.

    I'm not busting chops of people that say don't draw or can't draw, I'm just throwing out more food for thought....
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