Scenario time (happened 2 weeks ago)

This is a discussion on Scenario time (happened 2 weeks ago) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If it came to ramming my way out...I'd do it once and see if there's a reaction from BG (as stated, this is my original ...

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Thread: Scenario time (happened 2 weeks ago)

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    If it came to ramming my way out...I'd do it once and see if there's a reaction from BG (as stated, this is my original hope)...that he'll back off and to save his car, even go move it. I've made my intent clear. Is it worth his vehicle? (Leaving out bg with gun, scenario didnt mention it)

    OTOH, what is this scenario going to look like from the outside now? Good reminder from 64Zebra, and what I always say when discussing drawn guns.

    Now you have a good chance of other passersby getting involved (and probably not in a good way) or LE. And it's not going to look good.

    That said, if that was my only option (esp since I cant always carry) I'd do it. And my defense would be I was making every effort to flee.

    And btw, in this scenario, there was only 1 bg. I dont know how that woman would get herself pinned in, but I would NEVER have, only because, having driven pickups for yrs, & lifelong SA re: driving, I ALWAYS make sure I can get out of where I stop. It's been foremost in my mind many times when I've stopped to assist with accidents.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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  3. #62
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    I have to add something to this.....since this just happened here and sounded real similar

    we just had an incident where a homeowner arrived home and found a strange car in the driveway and guys were coming out of the house removing some items, the homeowner parked their car behind the suspect's car blocking them in and already calling 911,
    the dirtbags got in their bigger more powerful car and attempted to ram their way out of the driveway but could not do it, damaged both cars
    they then jumped out of the car and pointed a gun at the homeowner as they sat in the driver's seat...unarmed of course and refused to move the car
    luckily the 2 ran off when the homeowner refused to move

    we caught one hiding a couple blocks away, other is still at large

    this made me think of this thread immediately and how these dirtbags couldn't ram their way out, and the fact that the homeowner wasn't armed and was a sitting duck in their car
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    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  4. #63
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    Does anyone ever wonder about posts like these where the OP posts his/her first post and sparks a lot of discussion and then you never hear from them again? Doesn't the OP want to read the feedback and possibly reply? I'm kind of leery of posts like this - they make an excellent "scenario" but I find them hard to believe at face value. Too many details don't make sense.
    Ben

    Cogito, ergo armatum sum. I think, therefore I am armed. (Don Mann, The Modern Day Gunslinger; the ultimate handgun training manual)


  5. #64
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    I have thought about this in the past. (Pre-gun ownership but dont know if that matters)

    I thought that I would indeed park in a burglar's vehicle if I had the opportunity...but not wait around in it when they wanted to leave. I wouldnt put myself in jeopardy, I'd retreat and call 911, and get to my neighbors.

    As an LEO, what do you think, is this a good or bad idea?

    (And ramming something back end/head on, in a straight line or even 90 degrees, isnt going to work unless there's a very big difference is size...and then depending on distance. The purpose of ramming, to me, would be to create just enough space and angle to get yourself out.)
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I have thought about this in the past. (Pre-gun ownership but dont know if that matters)

    I thought that I would indeed park in a burglar's vehicle if I had the opportunity...but not wait around in it when they wanted to leave. I wouldnt put myself in jeopardy, I'd retreat and call 911, and get to my neighbors.

    As an LEO, what do you think, is this a good or bad idea?

    (And ramming something back end/head on, in a straight line or even 90 degrees, isnt going to work unless there's a very big difference is size...and then depending on distance. The purpose of ramming, to me, would be to create just enough space and angle to get yourself out.)
    absolutely not, I would never think it was a good idea to confront the burglar like this
    I would drive on by if I didn't see the car ahead of time (in order to stop further down the street without getting to my house) I'd park lights out and call 911 and give description of people/vehicles, If I had driven by, get the tag
    this serves 2 purposes....1)you don't confront and unknown number of dirtbags, and 2) you don't alert them, allowing LEOs the time to get there, hopefully before dirtbags realize owner is home and flee

    and agreed on the ramming, purpose and intent, my reason for posting was more to show how fast dirtbag went from ramming/fleeing to sticking a gun in the face of the driver/homeowner who was sitting in their coffin in that driver's seat
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    Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    64Zebra, thanks. I appreciate the good advice.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #67
    Member Array VTXDM40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    The thing is, that girl (and probably the aunt in the story) are just not wired to do anything to protect themselves or others.

    The only thing I can say is that "sometimes" these people can be trained to take rudimentary steps to protect themselves, but they have to be walked through it, first. So try to recreate what happened with your aunt, if she'll even agree to that, and maybe show her ways to solve that particular problem. Who knows, a light bulb may come on.
    I agree. Most responses are coming from a male point-of-view. A lot of women are not aggressive nor assertive and may have never been invloved in any situation that causes them to protect themselves. That's why some women will endure abuse and not take steps to rectify or change their circumstance. Most women are also very compassionate and would certainly stop to help a young woman and her child. Whithout berating her, try to calmly, respecfully and gently explain what she might do differently. She need not CC, but could use her car to protect and remove herself from the situation. The car can be replaced.
    We need to educate not alienate those who don't understand why we CC.

    BTW.....welcome to the forum USAFtrevor87....my mother-in-law lives in Inver Grove Heights.
    Take care,
    VTXDM40...........Molon Labe

  9. #68
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    I would fear/avoid revealing my weapon prematurely. You're stuck in a car unable to move. If this crazy guy had a gun himself, you could be a goner. Wait until you absolutely have to fire to save your life. Just my thinking. Sounds like this situation turned out ok. Giving him verbal warnings is useless if he's screaming and drunk. He went away, and was given enough time to do so. Don't overreact - keep your cool until you HAVE to do what you have to do.

    I know some folks will interpret this as "but then it might be too late" -- you just never know in the heat of the moment the 100% correct thing to do. Just use good judgement, and don't lose your cool. It's easy to pull it out when you're scared to death and trapped. But it's not always necessary.
    It is utterly illogical to believe that passing laws to reduce gun violence will be successful when those who are commiting the gun violence do not obey the law.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    I have to add something to this.....since this just happened here and sounded real similar

    we just had an incident where a homeowner arrived home and found a strange car in the driveway and guys were coming out of the house removing some items, the homeowner parked their car behind the suspect's car blocking them in and already calling 911,
    the dirtbags got in their bigger more powerful car and attempted to ram their way out of the driveway but could not do it, damaged both cars
    they then jumped out of the car and pointed a gun at the homeowner as they sat in the driver's seat...unarmed of course and refused to move the car
    luckily the 2 ran off when the homeowner refused to move

    we caught one hiding a couple blocks away, other is still at large

    this made me think of this thread immediately and how these dirtbags couldn't ram their way out, and the fact that the homeowner wasn't armed and was a sitting duck in their car

    64Zebra, Yep, that would make me think of this thread too.

    You know... this whole thread reminds me of what I learned during the Street Survival Seminar I attended in 1999 which is put on by Caliber Press for law enforcement officers. And it's this...

    A lot of police officers are killed in the line of duty (and I suspect the same naturally would be true for civilian crime victims) simply because they refuse to believe, or accept that they are in the midst of a deadly force encounter.

    This theory was gleaned when debriefing hundreds of officers lucky enough to survive, who stated that they just didn't believe the person was going to try and kill them.

    Often times officers said, they knew they were in a dangerous situation, but they didn't think it was at that level of danger, when in reality, it was.

    Or, that they had a "preconceived" notion that a deadly encounter would happen differently than what was actually happening right then.

    Reading a lot of peoples responses to this thread, I see a lot of folks tending to overlook the fact that the aunt in the original post was clearly placed in jeopardy. The attacker also had the capability of killing her even if he was unarmed because of the obvious disparity of force (physically stronger, younger, large male, enraged, and intoxicated vs. elderly female). And certainly he had the opportunity to kill her the moment he successfully broke through one of the glass windows, (which he was actively trying to do.) In fact, if the window had broken, and she had gotten even a tiny particle of glass in her eyes, she would be immediately prevented from effectively fighting back.

    I think people tend to dismiss the seriousness of the situation because it's not what they expect a real deadly force situation is going to be like.

    They expect it to be something else. Possession of a crow bar, or visible gun or whatever... But for an elderly female, against a brutal, out of control, intoxicated nut job who blocked her escape, beating on her windows trying to get in and ranting threats when he had just beat the crap out of his wife in the presence of their infant child... Clearly, you're in a deadly force situation. Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy are all three present.

    [If you've ever seen Dennis Tueller personally speak on the "Tueller Drill" he clearly says, "I'm not saying that just because a man has a knife at 21 feet away from you means you draw your gun and shoot him. What it means is if you're dealing with a person armed with a knife... Your gun shouldn't be still in your holster!" You may still be able to defuse it verbally or by displaying your weapon. In fact, if he's in front of a few other buddies and you draw your weapon, you've just provided him an opportunity to back down, yet still save face in front of his crew. He'll say... "dude had a gun, what was I supposed to do?"]

    Now, all that said... It's definitely a judgment call to make, but if you fail to recognize a lethal situation when you're in the midst of one, you're likely to do so at your own peril.

    Also, the fact that the thug in the original post eventually backed down and fled is absolutely meaningless and should not even be considered. In fact, giving that any weight what so ever, may be what gets you killed the next time.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #70
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    good add Bark'n

    funny you mention the Street Survival seminar, my wife and I are attending that class in September
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    "I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
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    Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  12. #71
    Member Array mirage2521's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski View Post
    I would draw my cell phone and make sure the man knew I was dialing 911. His next reaction would most likely be to flee. It would take more than banging on my window and screaming to make me draw my weapon.
    and the first response is a winner

    There was very limited threat here. Had he made some move to enter the car it's all different. But beating on the window and yelling. I am dialing.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram25 View Post
    Break the glass and your a dead man!
    Even looking like you are going to break the glass changes everything. Car windows don't break very easy. If he had any sort of device that might help him break window in his hand. I would make it clear to him I was armed. I am not in any hurry to kill someone.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirage2521 View Post
    and the first response is a winner

    There was very limited threat here. Had he made some move to enter the car it's all different. But beating on the window and yelling. I am dialing.
    As a woman, I can say that I have thought about this many times (without the being blocked in part). If he showed any violence at all, after 911, my gun would indeed be visible. Maybe not pointed at him yet, or maybe so.

    I'd also still be trying to drive my way out of there, somehow, but esp if I was trapped, my gun would be a part of the equation. And if he went back to his vehicle, I'd have him in my sights the entire time.

    Question: what is the next *best* step in the escalation for me if he gets a gun from his car?

    a) open car door, get out, use for concealment, and aim?

    b) use front end of car as cover and prepare to shoot thru windshield?

    c) other? (depending on angle it may be possible to shoot thru driver's side window, but doesnt seem likely)

    If he lifts that gun at me, I would fire. I guess I'm just asking what the best position to do that would be?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Question: what is the next *best* step in the escalation for me if he gets a gun from his car?

    a) open car door, get out, use for concealment, and aim?

    b) use front end of car as cover and prepare to shoot thru windshield?

    c) other? (depending on angle it may be possible to shoot thru driver's side window, but doesnt seem likely)

    If he lifts that gun at me, I would fire. I guess I'm just asking what the best position to do that would be?
    if you stay in your car, and your car is not moving, you are in your coffin
    if you are not able to drive away you will be better off getting out of your car and try to keep your engine block between you and the dirtbag, if other cover available you can move to it and possibly get away
    getting out provides you more cover and is more tactically sound (yes, there are tactics involved, not meaning to sound like a mall ninja) he is mobile and if you stay in your car you're like a fish in a barrel to him
    next...do whatever it takes to survive
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    "I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
    --G.W. McClintock

    Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    if you stay in your car, and your car is not moving, you are in your coffin
    if you are not able to drive away you will be better off getting out of your car and try to keep your engine block between you and the dirtbag, if other cover available you can move to it and possibly get away
    getting out provides you more cover and is more tactically sound (yes, there are tactics involved, not meaning to sound like a mall ninja) he is mobile and if you stay in your car you're like a fish in a barrel to him
    next...do whatever it takes to survive


    This also sounds like good advice. I know that mentally, the car will seem like a safe place to be, but in a gunfight, I would need to be out and use it as cover. I need to do some mental exercises on this.

    I'm glad you wrote this. I practice IDPA and it's all about moving. And this should be no different. Get out, move, and use car or other as cover (altho in this scenario we now have an older woman in the passenger seat).
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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