Pulled over in PA

This is a discussion on Pulled over in PA within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Honesty isn't an issue if the question wasn't asked. Major rule of life in general is to offer no more information than is absolutely necessary. ...

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Thread: Pulled over in PA

  1. #61
    Member Array TBob's Avatar
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    Honesty isn't an issue if the question wasn't asked. Major rule of life in general is to offer no more information than is absolutely necessary. I never inform on initial contact (such contact is very rare anyway) if I'm not required to do so by law. I have the right to be safe and secure in my person. Isn't that why we carry?

    While the officer may have had the right to strip you of your firearm temporarily, the pat down strikes me as illegal unless you consented to a search. Since you were legally carrying, the officer had no cause to search you. I'm not a lawyer, but that may be actionable in court. The dash cam makes nice evidence in your favor. Remember that you're LEGALLY carrying, and it doesn't matter if he knows you from Adam. Your first response when he starts to put his hands on you should have been "I do not consent to any searches." Do not resist, but make it clear that you do not consent. If he doesn't stop at that point, he's violating your civil rights. A simple traffic stop does not constitute a right to search. If you don't know and exercise your rights, you effectively don't have them. You also embolden the officer to continue violating citizens' civil rights as a matter of course.
    "To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them"
    - George Mason, American Statesman (1725-92)

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  3. #62
    Member Array Adameeski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBob View Post
    it doesn't matter if he knows you from Adam.
    Why'd you have to bring me into this?
    ...Adam

    "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head." --Winston Churchill

  4. #63
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    Having my license has improved my driving habits for this very reason. I try even harder now to obey traffic laws so I don't get pulled over. However, if I have a brain fart and do something stupid that requires some LEO interaction, I fully intend to inform even though it is not required in PA.

  5. #64
    Member Array BigBear's Avatar
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    I'm no LEO, so I'm just stating what I think. I don't THINK that you have to consent to a patdown If the LEO does it to ensure his safety. He was told that there was a weapon on the driver's person. I live in NC, so I am required to inform. I have never been pulled over, but have gone through several license checks, always informed, and was thanked for doing so and sent on my way. Everytime it happened, there were multiple LEOs present, which in my mind is a much different situation than a lone officer in a bad part of town at night. Since I've thought about that, I've changed my mind from thinking the LEO went too far to thinking he was taking precautions to make sure he went home to his family at the end of his shift. As much as my rights mean to me, I don't have a problem with that. I think the situation in its entirety made him think his actions were prudent. You handled it well, and I hope I would do the same.
    " In theory, reality and theory are the same. In reality, they are not."

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  6. #65
    Member Array ScotWarrior's Avatar
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    okay folks, let's get something straight - there is no violation of rights going on in the frisk. it is both legal and prudent. please reference TERRY v. OHIO (1968) in which SCOTUS ruled that an outer garment patdown to determine the presence of weapons that MIGHT jeopardize an officer's safety was okay. having a CCL does not magically give us immunity from anything - in fact, having one should heighten our interest in cooperation, and the responsibility to let someone know that *hey - i want to let you know, i'm armed and i'm not a danger to you.* he may take for a moment, or he may not. it's a judgment call, and trust me, LEOs are not looking to screw you over.

    i want, and need, everyone who apparently just recently got issued their bar license along with their CCL to understand that there is no infringement on your rights. it is normal, justified, legal, and prudent for officers to do a gentle search once the presence of weapons is known or suspected. as a LEO, even i'm not immune. you need to realize that LEOs don't know you personally 99.9% of the time, and we're not sure what we're walking into. this is not some arbitrary jackbooted goose stepping nazi tecnique here - it's something that was determined by SCOTUS to be in keeping with the Constitution. having a CCL doesn't make you above safety or common sense, much less above the prudence and courtesy to inform. if your jurisdiction is optional, then fine. but folks, unless you REALLY screw it up, we're going to be appreciative of you letting us know - it shows you care about our making it home after work too. not only that, we remember the guys who were cool about the whole thing. makes some of us even *magically* forget about the ticket in the first place, but please don't think of that as an incentive.

    it's kinda silly to argue about someone trampling on your rights when a) you were stopped for a violation of law or code in the first place, b) he's not confiscating anything and will return it to you shortly, and c) your whole basis for argument is invalid. the dash cam does not constitute a video to go to court and sue him for doing his job in the first place.

    what worries me about some of the comments is that a) i get the impression you think LEOs are here to disarm you. they're not. almost all like you being armed, as it means more good guys are out there, and VERY few CCL holders are likely to commit a crime - something about responsibility and remembering which side you're on. b) LEOs are somehow incapable of handling a firearm without doing something awful to ourselves or you, c) some of these comments posted on here are downright distrustful of anything with a badge. this isn't hollywood. police agencies aren't swarming with corrupt cops looking to infringe on your rights - i promise!

    as a CCW permit holder not only am i going to do same thing as OP, but as a LEO, it is my duty, responsibility, and standing order from my dept that i notify that i'm legally armed, and only *then* do i notify that i'm a LEO, with the full knowledge that i'm not above what's about to happen - "sign here, please, here's your stuff, have a nice day."

    guys, really, cops aren't there to trample all over your rights - please don't forget that when posting, much less when out on the streets. we're on the same side. please, dial it back a couple of notches, okay?
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" ~Patrick Henry

  7. #66
    Member Array PRSOrator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotWarrior View Post
    it's kinda silly to argue about someone trampling on your rights when a) you were stopped for a violation of law or code in the first place, b) he's not confiscating anything and will return it to you shortly, and c) your whole basis for argument is invalid. the dash cam does not constitute a video to go to court and sue him for doing his job in the first place.
    I'm not sure if this was directed at me but, I wasn't trying to make an argument about someone violating my rights. I just thought it was an interesting scenario that I wasn't expecting, and thought it could trigger some good conversation on the forum was all.

  8. #67
    Member Array TapRackBang's Avatar
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    guys, really, cops aren't there to trample all over your rights - please don't forget that when posting, much less when out on the streets. we're on the same side. please, dial it back a couple of notches, okay?
    Nice post but since your kinda new here you might need to know that your wasting your breath on some here..Best to just have thick skin and skip the cop bashers posts. There are some who believe that cops are the criminals.
    "Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion..in private self defense." John Adams

  9. #68
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    yes ScotWarrior just look at some of the post about those Christian terrorist in Michigan and you will see that there are some people hear that, to put in nicely, are out of touch with reality.

  10. #69
    Member Array XDM40cal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotWarrior View Post
    okay folks, let's get something straight - there is no violation of rights going on in the frisk. it is both legal and prudent. please reference TERRY v. OHIO (1968) in which SCOTUS ruled that an outer garment patdown to determine the presence of weapons that MIGHT jeopardize an officer's safety was okay. having a CCL does not magically give us immunity from anything - in fact, having one should heighten our interest in cooperation, and the responsibility to let someone know that *hey - i want to let you know, i'm armed and i'm not a danger to you.* he may take for a moment, or he may not. it's a judgment call, and trust me, LEOs are not looking to screw you over.

    i want, and need, everyone who apparently just recently got issued their bar license along with their CCL to understand that there is no infringement on your rights. it is normal, justified, legal, and prudent for officers to do a gentle search once the presence of weapons is known or suspected. as a LEO, even i'm not immune. you need to realize that LEOs don't know you personally 99.9% of the time, and we're not sure what we're walking into. this is not some arbitrary jackbooted goose stepping nazi tecnique here - it's something that was determined by SCOTUS to be in keeping with the Constitution. having a CCL doesn't make you above safety or common sense, much less above the prudence and courtesy to inform. if your jurisdiction is optional, then fine. but folks, unless you REALLY screw it up, we're going to be appreciative of you letting us know - it shows you care about our making it home after work too. not only that, we remember the guys who were cool about the whole thing. makes some of us even *magically* forget about the ticket in the first place, but please don't think of that as an incentive.

    it's kinda silly to argue about someone trampling on your rights when a) you were stopped for a violation of law or code in the first place, b) he's not confiscating anything and will return it to you shortly, and c) your whole basis for argument is invalid. the dash cam does not constitute a video to go to court and sue him for doing his job in the first place.

    what worries me about some of the comments is that a) i get the impression you think LEOs are here to disarm you. they're not. almost all like you being armed, as it means more good guys are out there, and VERY few CCL holders are likely to commit a crime - something about responsibility and remembering which side you're on. b) LEOs are somehow incapable of handling a firearm without doing something awful to ourselves or you, c) some of these comments posted on here are downright distrustful of anything with a badge. this isn't hollywood. police agencies aren't swarming with corrupt cops looking to infringe on your rights - i promise!

    as a CCW permit holder not only am i going to do same thing as OP, but as a LEO, it is my duty, responsibility, and standing order from my dept that i notify that i'm legally armed, and only *then* do i notify that i'm a LEO, with the full knowledge that i'm not above what's about to happen - "sign here, please, here's your stuff, have a nice day."

    guys, really, cops aren't there to trample all over your rights - please don't forget that when posting, much less when out on the streets. we're on the same side. please, dial it back a couple of notches, okay?


    +1
    I have to here in Michigan and (IF) the LEO that happen to pull me over , i'll do what it take to make the Officer feel safe and not on edge...
    XDM 40cal bitoneXD40SC BitoneBersa 380.
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    "I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid.
    I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world."

  11. #70
    Member Array ScotWarrior's Avatar
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    thanks all.

    PRSO - not directed at you. not really directed at anybody.
    TRB - thanks for the heads up.
    Alex - i'll look it up.

    esta bien, gracias.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" ~Patrick Henry

  12. #71
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotWarrior View Post
    okay folks, let's get something . b) LEOs are somehow incapable of handling a firearm without doing something awful to ourselves or you, ?
    Problem is, I don't KNOW that you can safely handle my firearm. For all I know you could be some assosiates degree, city born, 6 weeks- at- the- academy- never- shot anything- but the Glock that you are currently carrying noob.

    My safety comes first. Before yours. If I am not required to inform, I will not. I do not trust you, it has nothing to do with a badge, I don't trust anybody.

  13. #72
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDM40cal View Post


    +1
    I have to here in Michigan and (IF) the LEO that happen to pull me over , i'll do what it take to make the Officer feel safe and not on edge...
    And what about your safety? What comes first your safety, or the officers. They may be mutually exclusive. They may not. I tend to trust myself more than some stranger.

    This entire idea that people seem to have, that they will give up their safety, voluntarily, to some unknown stranger, is completely foriegn to me.

  14. #73
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotWarrior View Post
    you need to realize that LEOs don't know you personally 99.9% of the time, and we're not sure what we're walking into.
    You need to realize that the citizen doesn't know YOU either.

    That citizen can either step out of the law as written and render you extra-legal "courtesies" or try to "put you at your ease" or he can follow the letter of the law. Here's what happened to somebody who tried to put Fairfax County, Virginia cops "at their ease".

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
    The Virginia Citizens Defense League reports three Fairfax County, VA police officers are involved in a false arrest of a North Carolina man.
    ************************************************** ********

    We haven't had any issues with the Fairfax County police in quite a while now. I have found them to be one of the best run police agencies in Virginia, stated Philip Van Cleave.

    However, three officers tarnished that image last week when they unlawfully arrested a North Carolina resident who was legally carrying a handgun and had a North Carolina CHP.

    Hold on tight - this is a weird story.

    The gun owner was pulled over for running through a red light, a charge which the gun owner disputes.

    The gun owner, believing that he had to disclose he was lawfully armed as they do in North Carolina, dutifully told the officer he had a NC CHP and was indeed armed.

    The officer seemed to ignore the statement, but very shortly two more patrol units pulled up. The next thing the gun owner knew he is in a "felony stop" mode. He was asked to walk backwards towards the officers, who then disarmed and handcuffed him.

    While trying to unloaded his gun, THEY DROPPED IT ONTO THE ROAD!

    The two officers and a SERGEANT then proceeded to tell him that he was under arrested for:

    1. Having hollow point bullets, which they claimed were illegal in Virginia (!)
    2. Taking a loaded gun across the state line, which the gun owner was told was a FELONY (!)
    3. Having a concealed gun that the police said he couldn't have since he was from North Carolina (!!)

    His car and gun were impounded and he was taken off to a magistrate.

    The magistrate looked at the charges and told the police officers that they had just made a false arrest.

    The officers pointed out the possession of hollow point bullets. The magistrate asked, "are they teflon coated?"

    "No," replied on of the officers.

    "Then they are legal."

    Trying to find something that would stick and justify the false arrest, one of the officers said, "We couldn't verify that his North Carolina permit is valid."

    The magistrate looked at the permit, noticed the phone number on the back where one can call to verify the permit, called the number, and within a few minutes found out the permit was indeed valid.

    The gun owner was ordered to be released.

    After being released from custody, the gun owner was given a hard time by another officer about getting his gun back, but he did finally get it back.

    If all of that isn't bad enough, the arresting officer went ahead and gave the gun owner a ticket for the alleged offense of running a red light!

    In essence, with that brilliant move, the officer was practically BEGGING the gun owner to PLEASE sue Fairfax Count for the false arrest!

    I have already talked to my high-level contact with the Fairfax County PD about this entire situation and the gun owner has filed a formal complaint.

    In the past, Fairfax County PD has been very good when such internal investigations are required. Now we will wait and see what happens.

    What is clear is that Fairfax County PD needs to educate its officers on:

    1. Possession of hollow point bullets
    2. Reciprocity laws
    3. Lawful carriage of firearms across state lines
    4. Safe gun handling (a few years ago unsafe gun handling by an officer cause a gun to discharge, killing an unarmed, handcuffed man)





    -------------------------------------------
    ************************************************** *************************
    VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    (VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
    dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The Right to
    Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental human right.

    VCDL web page: Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL)
    ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
    Enough of these things happen that I choose to obey the LETTER OF THE LAW, nothing more, nothing less. You have no right to expect anything more of me, just as I have no right to expect more of you. You may want to go home safely, but I want just as much to not be falsely arrested because I tried to be "respectful" to you. It's just not worth the risk.

    And as far as being stopped, you can be stopped for a variety of reasons, some fair, some foul. There are sobriety and other checkpoints. You can be a witness or suspected witness to a crime. An officer can simply be misbehaving as in the case where my best friend's wife was stopped for "weaving" while driving me to the Cleveland Amtrak station.

    It's my duty to obey the law, nothing more.

  15. #74
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    The officer may have been following a SOP.

    In any case, I see nothing wrong with a police officer making himself safe first in a bad neighborhood with a person carrying a weapon. He wasn't abusive, but polite, and attending as a professional to potential danger as a precaution. (I assume once he checked the gun's serial and permit, he returned both and that was it - (except for the ticket for rt turn).

    Don't forget, he didn't just pull you over for the heck of it. He stopped a man for a traffic violation in a bad area who then told him he was armed and said it was legal. Anyone could say that carrying a gun, for any purpose, some not so healthy for police officers.

    I think it was nice of you to tell him so as to prevent any surprises to the officer during the time he stopped you, and I think it was felt a necessary precaution on his part to proceed as he did. You both handled this professionally and went your ways without incident. Congratulations. It turned out well. (Sorry about the ticket though)

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by NIS350ZTT View Post
    Seems reasonable to me. Respect towards one another goes a long way. I would have no problem with what happened. I think you made the right choice in informing him. Situations with LEOs go a lot smoother/quicker when you show them respect and courtesy.
    I'll never understand this....how is not informing when not required to NOT showing respect and courtesy? I can/will be just as respectful and courteous without bringing up the fact that I am armed.

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