Would you carry here.... - Page 2

Would you carry here....

This is a discussion on Would you carry here.... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I carry everywhere it's legal to do so!...

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 29 of 29

Thread: Would you carry here....

  1. #16
    VIP Member
    Array Thumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    7,341
    I carry everywhere it's legal to do so!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Minnesnowta
    Posts
    2,034
    From handgunlaw.us

    Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons

    I'd not carry there unless I had permission from the facility's director.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array canav844's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    589
    Quote Originally Posted by jumpwing View Post
    Find the legal definition of "places of worship." The key here is not what any of us consider this to be, but what the law says. A "place of worship" is generally defined in law as a structure dedicated for that purpose and not just "any space" that happens to be occupied during a service (YMMV). The Christian camp probably has a building they use as a chapel, and this might meet the legal qualifications. But anywhere on the property? I sincerely doubt it.

    Again, it's the legal definition according to the jurisdiction where the property is located; not the hypothetical definition according to us internet philosophers and theologians.
    Also look into the legal definition of carry, you may be able to quietly throw it in your bag (assuming a multi day retreat here a COM safe would tuck into a folded sweatshirt with ease) encased and unloaded, then while it may not be immediately accessible, of something should happen you'll still have it, and if there's relative security and limited entry to the camp you may have enough warning. (I just re-read up on the Appalachian School of Law and Pearl High School shootings)

    Of course if they give you their blessing to carry, then by all means. And additionally are the illegal to carry in a place of worship laws in MI applicable to both CC and OC or just one, might give you a little more leeway, but I'm not familiar with the MI law you're referring to.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Kommie-fornia-stan
    Posts
    7,101
    If you engage in a discussion with the director of the camp, explain that while the camp may be "safe"--you still desire to carry to/from the camp--while he might balk at the thought of someone carrying at the camp, explain there is still travel required to/from the camp. Don't let him dwell on guns around camp...think big picture.

    Otherwise, drive yourself (find an excuse), keep gun in COM safe while you are physically in the camp, arm-up when leaving.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bay City
    Posts
    2,302
    Quote Originally Posted by canav844 View Post
    Also look into the legal definition of carry, you may be able to quietly throw it in your bag (assuming a multi day retreat here a COM safe would tuck into a folded sweatshirt with ease) encased and unloaded, then while it may not be immediately accessible, of something should happen you'll still have it, and if there's relative security and limited entry to the camp you may have enough warning. (I just re-read up on the Appalachian School of Law and Pearl High School shootings)

    Of course if they give you their blessing to carry, then by all means. And additionally are the illegal to carry in a place of worship laws in MI applicable to both CC and OC or just one, might give you a little more leeway, but I'm not familiar with the MI law you're referring to.
    Well to answer some of the questions as best I can, I don't think the web site has a phone number to call, and if I did find one, I would most likely get a secretary or such. she might be able to get me in touch with someone in charge. I may have to try looking up a phone number.

    From what I have read about the camp it is a 501c(3) (non-profit) that is administered thru a board of directors. The camp is it's own owner, so it isn't owned by a "Church".

    As far as Open carry. Places of worship are "Gun Free" zones in Michigan, so open or concealed falls under the same restrictions.

    Interestingly there are those that claim that since the Michigan CPL states "You may not carry a weapon CONCEALED in the following areas... that open carry is allowed in Michigan gun free zones such as schools or churches.

    I guess my only option is to find a phone number and call.

  6. #21
    Member Array andyw328's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Flint, MI
    Posts
    53
    I was under the distinct impression that in MI, church is an unarmed victim zone by default, but that it is legal to carry if the pastor/presiding official says it's ok. Also, in MI, state parks are legal carry zones. Church camp is most likely not a place of worship, as they probably don't own the camp, and if they do, there are probably specific buildings on site that are considered "places of worship," but not the whole thing. To be safe, check with the police/pastor. Happy trails!

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    east TN
    Posts
    2,341
    in case someone didnt mention this: in michigan you may carry in a church, you just must have permission from whomever is in charge (preachor, elders, etc depending on the type of church).
    I sure wouldnt think that a christian camp would qualifiy as a church. Certainly not outside, maybe in the buildings???
    Wo die Notwehr aufhört, fängt der Mord an
    (Murder begins where self-defense ends)
    Georg Büchner

  8. #23
    Member Array andyw328's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Flint, MI
    Posts
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    As far as Open carry. Places of worship are "Gun Free" zones in Michigan, so open or concealed falls under the same restrictions.
    There is actually a bizarre loophole in the law whereby a CPL holder can open carry in a pistol-free zone... It was in an opinion by the state police

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wichita Falls, Texas
    Posts
    1,618
    I would find a number and call.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  10. #25
    Member Array maddog3241's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by andyw328 View Post
    There is actually a bizarre loophole in the law whereby a CPL holder can open carry in a pistol-free zone... It was in an opinion by the state police
    And by the AG. IIRC...Matt
    I would carry..

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Amarillo, Texas
    Posts
    835
    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    If they hold religious discussions, meetings, etc. in this "camp," than a DA can certainly call it a "place of worship." Nothing says a place of worship must have walls, pews, and a bell tower. I.E. outdoor services.
    Using that logic means that no place would be legal, because if someone suddenly bowed his head in prayer, all CCW'ers would suddenly be illegally carrying in a place of worship.
    Live every day so that you can, with a clear conscience, look all men in their eyes and tell them to go to hell.

  12. #27
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,974
    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    Using that logic means that no place would be legal, because if someone suddenly bowed his head in prayer, all CCW'ers would suddenly be illegally carrying in a place of worship.
    I think he meant outdoor services like actually holding a meeting/mass.

    If the church owns the property then I would say probably not. If the church is renting it and it normally would be OK to carry there, (depending on the rental agreement) you may be legally OK but if you where made and nobody knew you had it there could still be a big mess.

    I try to stay away from events in which I am disarmed and there is no law enforcement on site.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bay City
    Posts
    2,302
    Quote Originally Posted by andyw328 View Post
    There is actually a bizarre loophole in the law whereby a CPL holder can open carry in a pistol-free zone... It was in an opinion by the state police

    I have heard that but as support for it not being true read
    MCL 428o in the right hand column. If ALL CPL holders were allowed to carry in gun free zones, then why is the law ammended to alow off duty corrections and parole officers to carry there?
    *****************
    MCL 28.425o was amended to extend CPL pistol free zone exemptions to the following while off-duty: county corrections officers; MDOC parole or probation officers; all reserve officers or sheriff’s posse members; and MSP motor carrier officers and capitol security officers.
    Before the amendment, those persons were only exempt from pistol free zones while on-duty. These exemptions continue to apply only to those persons having a CPL.

    ******************
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...1_263341_7.pdf

    So if off duty AND they have a CPL they can carry at a school or church IF they are motor carry or parole officers or such, NOT just joe blow.


    The attorny general opinion usually listed for this is 7097; Here is the opinion with my highlighting :
    Opinion No. 7097

    January 11, 2002


    Honorable Doug Spade
    State Representative
    The Capitol
    Lansing, MI

    You have asked whether a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol is, by reason of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act.

    Private investigators are licensed under the Private Detective License Act of 1965, 1965 PA 285, MCL 338.821 et seq. That act does not, however, authorize a private investigator to carry a concealed pistol.

    In the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act (Act), 1927 PA 372,1 MCL 28.421 et seq, the Legislature has addressed the licensing of persons to carry concealed pistols. Section 5b of the Act contains the requirements for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol. Under section 12a, various categories of persons, including peace officers, are made exempt from the requirements of section 5b for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol. There is, however, no exemption for private investigators in section 12a or in any other section of the Act. Thus, private investigators may carry concealed pistols only if they are licensed to do so under section 5b of the Act. Once licensed to carry a concealed pistol, private investigators are subject to the Act's restrictions in the same manner as any other person licensed to carry a concealed pistol.

    In 2000 PA 381, the Legislature significantly amended the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. New section 5b of the Act changed the requirements for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol. Under section 5b(7), a county concealed weapon licensing board "shall issue a license to an applicant" who meets the requirements of the Act. Once the board has issued a license, the license holder may, subject to exceptions stated in section 5o, carry a concealed pistol "anywhere in this state."

    In section 5o, however, the Legislature enumerated certain so-called gun-free zones, i.e., premises where a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall not carry a concealed pistol.

    Sec. 5o (1) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, . . . shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    a) A school or school
    property . . . .

    b) A public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

    c) A sports arena or stadium.

    d) A dining room, lounge, or bar area of a premises licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998 . . . . This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the premises.

    e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    f) An entertainment facility [that has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more].

    g) A hospital.

    h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university. [Emphasis added.]

    Section 5o of the Act expressly prohibits persons licensed under the Act from carrying concealed pistols in the specified gun-free zones.2 Nothing in section 5o or in any other section of the Act exempts private investigators from its prohibitions. A clear and unambiguous statement in a statute must be enforced as written according to its plain meaning. Dean v Dep't of Corrections, 453 Mich 448, 454; 556 NW2d 458 (1996). In such instances, statutory construction is neither required nor permitted; rather, the court must apply the statutory language as written. Piper v Pettibone Corp, 450 Mich 565, 572; 542 NW2d 269 (1995). Therefore, a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, even if that person is a licensed private investigator, must obey section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act and shall not carry a concealed pistol in any of the gun-free zones identified in the Act.

    This conclusion is not affected by the provisions of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1 et seq. That statute prohibits certain persons from possessing firearms on certain types of premises as follows:

    Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    c) A court.

    d) A theatre.

    e) A sports arena.

    f) A day care center.

    g) A hospital.

    h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, . . . .

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    b) A peace officer.

    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [Emphasis added.]

    By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition "[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon." Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

    When applied to a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol, there is no inherent conflict between the gun-free zone provisions in section 234d of the Penal Code and those in section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. The former statute, which prohibits firearms in certain protected zones, does not apply to persons who are licensed to carry a concealed weapon.3 The latter statute, which contains no exemptions, prohibits concealed weapon licensees from carrying a concealed pistol in certain protected gun-free zones. The legislative prohibition in section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act is not diminished in any way by section 234d of the Penal Code. When statutes govern the same subject matter and are in pari materia, the court must endeavor to construe them harmoniously and to give them reasonable effect. Speaker v State Administrative Bd, 441 Mich 547, 568, 579; 495 NW2d 539 (1993).

    It is my opinion, therefore, that a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol is not, by reason of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act.



    JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM
    Attorney General

    So the last two paragraphs seem to say private investigators, who have no more leeway than other CPL holders are not exempt from gun free zones.

  14. #29
    Member Array detroit9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    123
    You can carry in a church in MI, you just need the leaderships approval. I am a Board Officer and run our security team. Five of us are armed. I have a form our guys sign when they join the security team that explicitly states that their permission to carry on the church property. Call the leadership of the camp, I dont think you will have a problem.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Funny concealed carry with an obviously OPEN carry holster I saw today...
    By targus in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: April 19th, 2010, 07:09 PM

Search tags for this page

concealed carry in synagog

,

exempt cpl

Click on a term to search for related topics.