The flip side....I stopped a CHL holder - Page 2

The flip side....I stopped a CHL holder

This is a discussion on The flip side....I stopped a CHL holder within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by wmhawth Also puzzling is why the students would even believe such a silly notion. Because in some states this is a statute ...

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Thread: The flip side....I stopped a CHL holder

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    Also puzzling is why the students would even believe such a silly notion.
    Because in some states this is a statute requirement fact...Akin to how in some states you cannot carry into a bar or to a sporting arena while among others you can.

    Also as an instructor I can tell you for sure not everyone has good listening skills nor ability to comprehend information.
    I have been in class and witness students ask a question that was answered by myself or other instructors among my group just seconds or minutes prior in exactly the form they ask the question...

    Instructor: On Sunday there is no allowable hunting in MA....And it is required that all hunters wear 500 sq. inches of orange, with exception of turkey hunters in season.

    ~~~Five minutes elapses~~~

    Student with raised hand: Are we allowed to hunt on Sunday?
    Second student with raised hand: Do we have to wear orange?

    Do not assume that the instructor(s) suck or gave mis-information because a single student failed the test or passes only to go out into the world and think wrongly, do wrongly or make statements on his/her own that have things misconstrued and twisted up.
    Especially when such items are 'in the book' and most often standardized, per statute, in the way of instruction.

    What gets me about this story though is that the LEO tells the driver he is good to go now worrys, only for the driver to respond telling the LEO oh but I was told...blah blah blah. Stupid!

    Know when to shut yer mouth and know not to look a gift horse in the mouth. Dude should have stayed quiet and upon release continued to swim down stream, and thank his lucky stars for being given a solid.
    This story would have been better if the LEO had turned around and said;

    "Well okay then. Since you believed that to be a fact and indicate you now and should have known better, then I will cite you for not having provided me that ID and for not having it on your person...Which means on the spot revocation.
    Sign here, please....Have a nice day!"

    - Janq by personal choice does and will always inform, regardless of statute

    "You got to now when to hold'em. Know when to fold'em. Know when to walk away, and know when to run..." - Kenny Rogers, 'The Gambler'
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing


  2. #17
    Member Array mrjam2jab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    why do people keep teaching this to the CHL students?!?!?!?
    when I got my CHL our teacher made it very clear that this was not the case, you do NOT have to inform unless you are carrying!
    This hasn't changed, its the same as when I took the class in 2005.
    rant off

    I politely informed him that he was misinformed and that he in fact did not have to show the card/inform unless he was carrying a handgun at the time. I told him to re-read his CHL handbook or get on the DPS website to see the section covering this. He was cool with it all and was completely cooperative. I pleaded with him to slow down (street has lots of traffic, racers, and speeders...oh and wrecks).

    There was a previous thread on this site...there are several people from several different states who believe the law says you must inform even if not carrying. So the mis-info is not locale specific.


    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Because in some states this is a statute requirement fact...Akin to how in some states you cannot carry into a bar or to a sporting arena while among others you can.
    Do you know of specific states? All the ones i've read were "only if armed at the time"....I'd like to update my research.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Because in some states this is a statute requirement fact
    If that is fact there must be some logic to it. Whatever it is escapes me. In any case it seems too ridiculous for me to accept without seeing the statute. It wouldn't be believable just on the strength of a class instructor's say so.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Do you know of specific states? All the ones i've read were "only if armed at the time"....I'd like to update my research.
    Sources of carry information everyone who carries should be aware of and have bookmarked for reference:

    * NRA-ILA
    * USACarry.com ~ Concealed Firearm Permit Information By State
    * Handgunlaw.us
    * CarryConcealed.net ~ Legal

    As a general rule I will always first reference the NRA-ILA site _immediately_ followed by a cross check of the given states own firearm laws/statutes as are provided by every state via either their state police website and/or the state govt. website.

    For example if I were to have interest in the laws for Indiana (a random state I just selected...But otherwise have never investigated prior and have no real need to know) then I would be referencing _at a minimum_ in this order the following links...And I would not just review or skim but STUDY them.

    1) NRA-ILA ~ IndianaFirearm Laws
    2) Indiana Code TITLE 35, Article 47 Table of Contents
    3) Indiana State Police: Home
    [Note: In the left frame look to "Firearms Licensing" and click on the handle to see four sub links including two PDF documents]

    I would _study_ this for weeks or even repeatedly for months before going there.
    Why?
    For the exact same reason I advise my own students in courses I teach;

    "In the eyes of the law and law enforcement, ignorance of the law is not an excuse."

    As well do not at all assume that every police on the road is well, properly or even factually informed of the law and statutes in full or part or by their own understanding/comprehension/interpretation of the law.
    They are law enforcement not law makers nor interpreters (attorneys). Further they are not explicitly required to act as agents of information and interpretation to you; Joe Blow civilian pulled over/stopped and detained. People assume and think these things to be true, and many suffer some times greatly because of this wrong/erroneous thought.

    It's on you to inform yourself and to _know_ what is fact and what is fiction.
    You cannot in the immediate go back and be all well my teacher/instructor/buddy/the internets said this, that or some other stuff.
    You either know your rights and exercise them...Or you don't and throw yourself at the whims and mercy of the law which in the OPs case was law enforcement who by pure chance happened to be a kind and understanding man.

    Betting ones rights & freedoms on a quarter flip is no kind of bet in my book.
    I tell students this too.

    - Janq

    P.S. - In the states where I am licensed as a resident, VA and MA, multiple times I have corrected a law enforcement officer and/or caught them in the immediate in either an error or misinterpretation of statute..and even once an outright bald faced lie as related to what is and what is not statute.
    I've learned these lessons the long, hard and expensive to my time way.
    I am not an attorney nor a LEO...I'm just a Joe Blow civilian citizen who knows how to read and has good reading comprehension too as well as a strong memory. Most statutes to my experience are written in pretty much easy to read and understand common language english. Do not be intimidated by them or assume it difficult information to locate.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    Also puzzling is why the students would even believe such a silly notion.
    I think it's because in states where the police computer shows the concealed license info along with DL the cop is going to know the guy owns a gun and COULD be carrying it. By stating in before the computer run the cop isn't surprised and already knows if there is a gun besides the cops involved in the stop.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNinjaGo View Post
    71 in a 45 and you let him off without a ticket? Jeesh... I never got that lucky and I was never THAT far over the speed limit.
    I didn't let him off without a ticket, if you re-read my original post:
    I write his ticket
    he'll get the maximum fine from the judge, so no worries there
    we typically don't arrest for high speeds unless is really bad and they are driving erratically (such as the mustang I got doing 122 in 60 cutting people off on an exit ramp, had no insurance and reg expired a year too, he went to jail)

    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco
    My wife: "Yes I know that I do not need to inform you or show you the license, but ever since I got the license, I have been dying for an opportunity to show it off."


    Quote Originally Posted by rhenriksen
    as a common sense guideline (not law), many CHL instructors encourage their students to *always* display both TXDL & CHL to an officer.
    hey, I agree/support too
    I guess the instructors saying this need to make sure they tell them whats the law and whats recommendation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard
    I really don't like our present goofy system in which non-licensed car carry has no notification requirement; licensed car carry has a notification requirement with no penalty for failure to notify.

    Only The Texas Leg. can screw things up like that.
    absolutely agree, it makes absolutely no sense and has zero logic to require a licensee to require but not anyone else
    Last edited by 64zebra; April 14th, 2010 at 11:36 PM.
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    "I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
    --G.W. McClintock

    Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array HKinNY's Avatar
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    To Zebra.

    If he would have told you that he was a CCW'er and not carring at the time of the stop.

    Would you still have written the ticket?

    Can you lower the rate of speed issued of the summons if you so wanted to ?

  8. #23
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    he would have got the ticket....71/45 on city street, way too fast for a warning in my book, he admitted to me he didn't even know how fast he was going, not good for a car much less a motorcycle

    and no, no change of speed, against our rules/regs
    LEO/CHL
    Certified Glock Armorer

    "I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
    --G.W. McClintock

    Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    But to continue this story further in zebra's city:

    My wife: "Yes I know that I do not need to inform you or show you the license, but ever since I got the license, I have been dying for an opportunity to show it off."
    LOLOLOL

    I like her!
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhenriksen View Post
    So... as a common sense guideline (not law), many CHL instructors encourage their students to *always* display both TXDL & CHL to an officer. Which I completely support. Better to display both when it's not necessary, than stick to the letter of the law & get reamed (or worse) by an officer who's uninformed.
    I think the rules are the same here in Michigan - I always hand my license and CPL to the LEO at the same time, whether carrying or not. Well, okay, I've only had occasion to do it once since I got the CPL, but you know what I mean...
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  11. #26
    New Member Array Fish slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    Also puzzling is why the students would even believe such a silly notion.
    Not surprising to me as most of the gun laws are not logical

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array HKinNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    he would have got the ticket....71/45 on city street, way too fast for a warning in my book, he admitted to me he didn't even know how fast he was going, not good for a car much less a motorcycle

    and no, no change of speed, against our rules/regs
    71/45 is a little heavy. I hate it and must piss LEOs off when people say the have no idea what they were doing wrong.

    I have replied to the question "Do you know why I pulled you over?"

    Depends Officer " How long have you been behind me?"

    Only works when you know somebody that works that Preceint and sure that you are not going to get a ticket.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    From a legal defense standpoint, you are not supposed to say what you were doing or what you think they pulled you over for. I believe that most police stops are audio-recorded these days. So anything you say can be retained as evidence against you if you choose to challenge it in court.

    Being polite and talking as little as possible is better, IMO
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    From a legal defense standpoint...Being polite and talking as little as possible is better, IMO
    Agreed, and that is my own long standing general rule of practice.

    - Janq

    "Loose lips sink ships." - The U.S. War Dept.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    I got his license-good, motorcycle endorsement-good, insurance-good, registration-good (don't see these too often where all is good).
    Hmm, not enough of a concern for your safety to even bother asking about a gun at first contact.

    I run him on computer.....BEEP BEEP (computer talking) "Concealed Weapons Permit".
    I guess they got our computer system working with the DPS database like its supposed to....finally.
    Good thing they "finally" have that thing "working." Yet, it only "works" for the small sliver of society that is least likely to be the kind of desperate individuals that would risk capital murder of a police officer over a $150 speeding ticket. I suppose that if this person had just robbed a bank and is actually armed and dangerous, you'd be relieved that you didn't get the BEEP BEEP "Concealed Weapons Permit" message on your computer? You just made initial contact with an armed and dangerous criminal, but at least you can rest assured he doesn't have a concealed weapons permit?

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