Leo's and Permits

Leo's and Permits

This is a discussion on Leo's and Permits within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I work for a Department that will not allow you to qualify with any other weapon other than your issued duty. they also issue a ...

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Thread: Leo's and Permits

  1. #1
    Member Array anj4657's Avatar
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    Leo's and Permits

    I work for a Department that will not allow you to qualify with any other weapon other than your issued duty. they also issue a "off duty holster" and (quote the SOP) "strongly recommend off duty carry". The rig is not concealable unless you are wearing a jacket. If a got a CWP would I still be covered under HR 218 Leo safety act? (Mostly because I live so close to the Border of NC) And would I be able to bring a personal weapon into a place that served Alcohol on premise? Do any other Leo's out there have a CWP?


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array C Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anj4657 View Post
    I work for a Department that will not allow you to qualify with any other weapon other than your issued duty. they also issue a "off duty holster" and (quote the SOP) "strongly recommend off duty carry". The rig is not concealable unless you are wearing a jacket. If a got a CWP would I still be covered under HR 218 Leo safety act? (Mostly because I live so close to the Border of NC) And would I be able to bring a personal weapon into a place that served Alcohol on premise? Do any other Leo's out there have a CWP?
    As I read it thats up to your department...im covered under it and they(my agency) dont stipulate a certain weapon that I have to carry off duty..as long as I qualify Im covered with what ever since they dont stipulate..BUT some departments like yours unfortunately do stipulate...

    if I were you id just get a CC permit for your state and carry what you like. And you should be following the rules for CC in the state your in if your claiming LEOSA..for example if you went to NY you could not have more than a 10 round magazine...in NJ I think they outlawed hollow points so you could not carry those...

    if im wrong someone else chime in.

    and yes even as a LEO I had a CC permit in both NY and PA even as a LEO....just in case something funky went on and I was not able to qualify or something(say a injury like a broken arm) and that would mean im no longer covered under LEOSA..so I always had a CC permitt in my state..this would also let you carry what YOU want not what the Dept wants you to...sounds quite foolish IMO(your departments EXTRA interpretations into the LEOSA law to make you carry full size less concealable guns)

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    I don't, but many do for the very reasons you have mentioned. If you are carrying outside your department's policy, you must follow the rules of the CWP. Often, guys try to mix and match rules to suite their individual needs. Its one or the other.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Member Array ispcapt's Avatar
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    LEOSA says nothing about requiring active LEOs to carry their specific duty weapon. It also says nothing about exempting an active LEO from their dept policy. So by LEOSA you can carry any firearm you choose. However, if you violate your dept policy then LEOSA provides no protection against whatever discipline your dept wishes to administer.
    If you choose to disregard your agency's policy and carry whatever firearm you want then your agency does not have to cover you in any resulting civil action that may, and probably will, result from the use of the firearm since you are not complying with your agency's rules. When you are carrying out of state your agency won't cover you anyway since out of state you have no LE authority, would not be acting as a LEO within your jurisdiction, and any action you take will be as a private citizen.
    If you carry under a CWP license then you are restricted to the limitations of any other CWP license holder. That could mean you would be prohibited from carrying in a lot more locations than what is allowed under LEOSA.
    183 FBINA

  5. #5
    Member Array anj4657's Avatar
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    Alot of the guys I work with carry there duty weapon, but they use different holsters. I feel that its almost worse about it because the weapon is city property and they tell you to only use this holster. We know for fact that is against policy. But a permit is "frowned" on too. doesn't really make sense to me because by using my personal weapon vs duty weapon Im assuming the sole risk of the law suit that will follow if the weapon needed to be used.

  6. #6
    Member Array Bandolero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anj4657 View Post
    And would I be able to bring a personal weapon into a place that served Alcohol on premise? Do any other Leo's out there have a CWP?
    The question about bringinging into a place that serves alcohol, is considered to be in a de facto gray area by many. However, de jure, this is what the statute says:

    SEC. 2. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.

    (a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 926A the following:

    `Sec. 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers

    `(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

    `(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

    `(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

    `(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.


    `(c) As used in this section, the term `qualified law enforcement officer' means an employee of a governmental agency who--


    `(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and
    There was a recent case out west where a LEO shot a biker in a bar in Sturgis. This was the outcome of that case:


    Weapons charges dropped against four Iron Pigs



    By Heidi Bell Gease, Journal staff | Wednesday, November 19, 2008

    A judge has ordered that concealed weapons charges be dismissed against four off-duty Washington police officers who were charged in connection with a shooting during the Sturgis rally.

    Circuit Judge Warren Johnson ruled Friday that Scott Lazalde, Dennis McCoy, James Rector and Ron Smith are exempt from prosecution under South Dakota state law because of the federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act.

    However, Johnson ruled that a concealed weapons charge against Erik Pingel, 35, of Aurora, Colo., can proceed.

    Lazalde, 38, of Bellingham, Wash., and Rector, 44, Ferndale, Wash., are law enforcement officers with the U.S. Customs and Border Protection Service. McCoy, 58, of Seattle, Wash., is a Seattle police sergeant and Smith, 43, is a Seattle police detective. Pingel is a firefighter with the U.S. Department of Defense.

    All are members of the Iron Pigs motorcycle club and all were carrying concealed pistols when they were arrested Aug. 7 at the Loud American Roadhouse bar in Sturgis following an altercation with Hells Angels.

    During the scuffle Smith shot Hells Angel member Joseph Patrick McGuire of Imperial Beach, Calif. Smith originally was charged with assault and perjury but those charges were dismissed following a grand jury investigation. Smith has said he used his personal handgun in acting in self-defense.

    Authorities have accused McGuire of starting the fight. He has pleaded not guilty to assault and has a status hearing on Wednesday. He has remained free on bond as he recuperates from his wounds.

    Under a 2005 federal law, any qualified law enforcement officer carrying proper identification is allowed to carry a concealed weapon in any state except under certain circumstances.

    "While states retain the right to prohibit the possession of firearms on government property and to permit private persons and entities to prohibit the possession of firearms on their property, they cannot restrict qualified law enforcement officers in any other manner," Johnson wrote in his memorandum opinion.

    Defense attorney Robert Van Norman represented all five of the Iron Pigs.

    "It's a great decision and should be reassuring to a lot of law enforcement officers all over the country," he said.

    Meade County State's Attorney Jesse Sondreal could not be reached for comment Monday.

    Meanwhile, a concealed weapons charge against Pingel can proceed, Johnson ruled. Pingel has a concealed weapons permit in Colorado, which has a reciprocity agreement with South Dakota. However, his carrying the weapon into a bar violated South Dakota law, according to the memorandum decision.

    All of the weapons charges are class 1 misdemeanors punishable by up to one year in jail and a $2,000 fine.

    Contact Heidi Bell Gease at 394-8419 or heidi.bell@rapidcityjournal.com

  7. #7
    Member Array Bandolero's Avatar
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    The original source of the article I wanted to suggest you read, located at Police and Law Enforcement - PoliceOne.com, is secured on their web site so I cannot provide a link to it. However, I found it on a couple of other forums. This is recommended reading for LEOs carrying under HR218:

    Iron Pigs, Hell's Angels an Off-Duty Carry: Behind the Scenes - Warrior Talk Forums

    Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, shootout Sturgis 08 - 911 Job Forums

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    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Its been almost five years since I was an officer in Virginia, but at the time state code only required that the officer qualify with "a handgun". It didn't specify what kind, or that one had to qualify with all weapons one intended to carry on and off-duty. Of course most departments had stricter requirements than the state minimum, but based on the state standards and the requirements of 18.2-308, an LEO in Virginia wouldn't be in violation of state law by carrying any weapon, provided they had qualified with "a handgun". The department is free, of course, to hand out discipline for violation of its policies.

    As for LEOSA, it doesn't say anything about what handguns active LEOs may carry, as pointed out above. Here is the NC Attorney General's take on how LEOSA covers out-of-state officers last year. This comes directly from our 2009 in-service training:



    My department, thankfully, doesn't prevent me for qualifying with what I like (with certain cartridge and ammunition restrictions) for on-duty backup or off-duty carry. However, I still have a NC CHP, just in case. Mostly I keep it current because it makes buying guns much easier in NC, but I could also carry anything I wanted (on the permit, subject to permit restrictions) if I chose to do so.
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

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    Member Array Blue Jacket's Avatar
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    That's too bad about your departmental rules. I suppose many are the same. All I'm required to do is qualify with either an auto or revolver. If I choose and qualify with an auto only, then no revolver carry is allowed. I normally qualify with both. I do not have a state CCP. No need for one.
    May we never forget those in uniform who protect us night and day in lands far away. And those in all wars who paid the supreme sacrifice in defense of our country. May God Bless our Troops and First Responders.

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    Member Array ScotWarrior's Avatar
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    i do

    and my department ENCOURAGES us to be mindful of our positions and the need to carry. we qualify with our duty issue, a backup as issued, a backup if we opt to buy (and have inspected on a regular basis) any off duty carries we may be authorized, etc. i like this, as it shows a special trust with our LEOs. most of my buddies here are CCW holders, and would have it no other way.

    i carry anytime i'm out, but am mindful of the fact that when off duty, i am far better suited to observing and reporting than taking any decisive action. most especially if out with wife and baby.

    following SOP is important, but were i in that county i would remember two things - a) better to be judged by twelve than carried by six and i've got to be alive for them to have a big issue with me, and b) SIXTO's point is right on. mix n' match policies are bad - find one and stick with it. otherwise you are a target in everyone's radar if something happens.

    the theory that you're on duty 24/7 sounds great on paper and when telling campfire stories, but the reality is far different. when you take off that uniform, you're better trained and held to a higher standard than John Q Public, so you're able to see things in a different light. that also means the axe falls harder - so be an trained armed citizen rather than an off duty cop ready to switch back on, with all that that implies.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" ~Patrick Henry

  11. #11
    Member Array anj4657's Avatar
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    would the department have the right to tell you not to have CWP? is scary to me to think that if I ever had to use a weapon under a permit (or just get pulled by the wrong co-worker) that I may lose my job for violating policy. there is nothing written in the SOP mentioning a Permit, but is does state plainly the only weapon to be carried on or off-duty is the current dept issue firearm.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array WC145's Avatar
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    I can't see how they could forbid you to get a CC permit anymore than any other state issued license or permit.

    BTW, what kind of weapon and carry rig have they issued you?
    Last edited by WC145; April 14th, 2010 at 04:20 PM. Reason: left out a word.
    “Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”

  13. #13
    Member Array anj4657's Avatar
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    an M&P 40 compact with a level 2 safariland paddle holster. sweet holster but it totally defeats the the purpose of a compact pistol. but we dont have a traffic unit so most everything we do is corrections/courts/civil process and a fugitive squad that works with PD. I would prefer to carry a J-frame or atleast be able to have my pick of a holster for off-duty. I actually just put a "clipdraw" on a smith 642 but I haven't tried it out yet. anytime I try anything different I like to put atleast 50 rds through it before I carry it. of course summers here and it seems thats the real test for any holster. probably who so many people have a box full of holsters that failed to conceal or live up to a decent standard.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array WC145's Avatar
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    I've never been a big padde holster fan for concealment, the design works agaist itself since it hs to be so thick.

    The M&P Compact should be an easy enough gun to hide, I'd just buy a more appropriate holster to use on my off time. I'd rather take a slap on the wrist for different leather than whatever trouble might come with carrying a different gun. I've never heard of such strict requirements for off duty carry, do they make you carry cuffs, etc also?
    “Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”

  15. #15
    Member Array gmark340's Avatar
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    "If a got a CWP would I still be covered under HR 218 Leo safety act?"

    As has been stated above, the CWP has nothing to do with LEOSA. If you are carrying under a CWP, you are a civilian subject to all the CWP rules, including the "Virginia tuck" if that particular provision still exists (there was talk that it would be deleted as a requirement at some point).

    If, instead, you carry under LEOSA, and have your possession your department id card with photo, you are exempt from the VA State laws and can carry in a restaurant serving alcohol without doing the tuck: "...the Code of Virginia, Section 18.2-308 J3, specifically exempts "sworn law enforcement officers" from the prohibition against carrying concealed in a restaurant that also sells or serves alcoholic beverages."

    I have a FL permit only because it pre-dates my becoming an LEO and I have kept it up on the theory of "never let a permit lapse." Also, there may be times when carrying under my FL permit is legal and I don't want to advertise the fact that I am a LEO by showing my shield and id.

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