carry on school grounds in Texas - Page 3

carry on school grounds in Texas

This is a discussion on carry on school grounds in Texas within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Its good to hear a couple of Red Raiders talk about CHLs. Good information Doc...

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Thread: carry on school grounds in Texas

  1. #31
    Member Array TXCOL's Avatar
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    Its good to hear a couple of Red Raiders talk about CHLs.

    Good information

    Doc


  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnLeVick View Post
    A little history is in order, I think. When the original Texas CHL statute was passed in 1995, it did not define "premises," though the legislative intent was pretty clear, I thought, that they meant "buildings." (The term "premises," in some other legal contexts, can also mean most any piece of real estate.) Some school districts asked for Attorney General opinions as to whether carry was prohibited on school grounds, parking lots, etc. In a couple of counterintuitive, poorly written decisions, the then-AG Dan Morales (who later went to the pen) stated that any property under the control of the school was "premises." The '97 legislature fixed it, and they wanted it crystal clear, so they not only defined "premises," but further defined what are NOT premises, just in case another AG with reading comprehension difficulties came along.

    There is not another, conflicting statute, to my knowledge, but a few of the sneaky nervous nellies in the 2007 legislature did manage to insert an amendment to the Education Code, at Section 37.125, that creates a new offense if one, "in a manner intended to cause alarm or personal injury....intentionally exhibits, uses or threatens to exhibit or use a firearm..." on school property. It's a Third Degree Felony, so keep your pistol concealed round the grounds!
    Thank you very much, it figures in your bottom portion about nervous nellies LOL. I do appreciate the info.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  3. #33
    New Member Array EarthGirl's Avatar
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    Anything new on what "school sponsored" means?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnLeVick View Post
    Good idea. I am an attorney and have been a TX CHL Instructor since 1995. It is true that most LE do not know the concealed carry laws. Sad thing is, DPS Troopers have no excuse, and they are more likely to know the law than are officers from most other agencies. It is clearly legal to carry on school property, as long as you're not carrying into a building, and has been since 1997. My concern has always been with the "school sponsored activity" prohibition. The statute does not define that phrase, and to my knowledge, there is not yet case law defining it. I know of no authority restricting that phrase to only school-organized or UIL sporting events, so a creative prosecutor/persecutor might view recess as a "school sponsored event." You'd likely beat the rap, but not the ride.
    Dear Mr. LeVick,
    Since your 2010 comment on this forum about what was and wasn't "school sponsored," I was wondering if you knew of any case law that had defined the term, "school sponsored?" (in reference to CHL and being on a campus). Was there any further legal clarification of the term as you know it. I can't find anything. If I drop off a kid and then walk over to a bake sale, could I still potentially be arrested (if bake sales are "school sponsored" events I think I could).

    Any further determinations?

    Thanks!

  4. #34
    New Member Array RBDnhm's Avatar
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    It is interesting to see this thread still alive. While deciding whether to re-apply for my CHL I have been reviewing Texas statutes and I am not so sure the answer that "unlawful carrying weapon statute in Texas does not apply in the driveway/parking lot of a school is correct," although I believe that to be the proper interpretation. I am concerned some flaky court may not agree with that interpretation.

    While there is an Attorney General opinion from 1995 that suggests that to be the case, it does not really address an ambiguity in the statute and techincally addresses the issue only in the context of a CHL licensee (but to which the applicable Penal Code provision does not provide a defense). That opinion might not be available for a "mistake of law" defense, but I sure plan to use it.

    Texas Penal Code Sec. 46.03(a) prohibits carrying a weapon on "physical premises" (granted parking lot is not "premises" under 46.035) BUT the same statute 46.03(a) further prohibits carrying a weapon on "any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted". Isn't the parking lot/driveway of a school part of the grounds on which the school activity is being conducted? Legislature really needs to clarify, again. The defined term "premises" is not applied or used in the further prohibition.

    I believe the intent of the clarification of "premises" was to limit possible criminal exposure for driving through the driveway or parking in the parking lot, but why did they add or keep the "any grounds" language in 1995 if that was the intent. I assume it was because they wanted to "protect" school participants at private venues, such as soccer fields or ball parks or museums, but they could have said "any grounds not owned or controlled the particpating school" or something similarly complex.

    I hope Mr. LeVick replies, as does anyone else who may have "official" or "semi-official" interpretations of the "any grounds" language under Texas law. A DA's opinion would be especially helpful.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBDnhm View Post
    Legislature really needs to clarify, again. The defined term "premises" is not applied or used in the further prohibition..
    That's where I would disagree with you. I think that's where Texans need to get the Legislature to change the law period. Here, you can carry "anywhere" related to schools, and can carry in schools if they are not posted. However, the Legislature then took it a step further, they can post a "sign" ... but there is no real "legal penalty" nor is it a "crime" if you carry past the sign. If they discovered you are carrying, they can only 'ask you to leave' and if you don't leave, have you charged with trespassing..... and they can ONLY do that ... if it's inside the school building itself.

    Fighting about how many cheeiros there are in the bowl, is wasted effort, when you wanted a bowl of oatmeal in the first place. Think BIGGER . Most Mid-West states, including ours, have those laws..... Texas is starting to look anti-gun in comparison to many of the other states in the Midwest. It is a real misnomer to say Texas is "gun-friendly" and has some of the best laws in terms of guns in the Midwest, when in actuality.... Texas is one of the strictest. If you don't believe me, look at not only this law, but your open carry laws as compared to other states in the Midwest.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnLeVick View Post
    Yet another thing that drives me wild. Section 30.06 signs are only valid as to "premises," as premises are defined under the statute, i.e., "buildings or portions of buildings." You can't make a parking lot a premises. In fact, parking lots are expressly defined OUT of being premises under the statute. The Plano school board is getting bad legal advice, or no legal advice, or they are ignoring legal advice.

    For several years, Texas Tech University had miniature 30.06 signs posted all over campus, and even along Indiana Avenue, running through campus. They were invalid for both size and location. Chief General Counsel at Tech is a friend, and when I contacted him about it, he said, "I know, I know; I've told the Regents many times." He finally got through to them, and the signs are down. Even the campus police now know that folks with CHLs can carry on campus. Some folks are educable, but it may take time and effort...
    WRECK 'EM TECH!!! (BBA '89, MBA '91) My son has just been accepted to Texas Tech for Fall 2014 to study Mechanical Engineering. Glad to see Tech is doing things correctly even though they are still saddled with the bad state law on Campus Carry.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by redraider10 View Post
    So you mean to tell me that I can conceal on campus here at Tech?

    That would make my day a ton better, not having to remember to remove my firearm every time I have to go back to class.

    Edit: Yesterday at the entrance to the parking lot at 19th and flint I noticed a sign that said something to the effect of "The unlicensed possession of a firearm on these premises, etc..." I guess they took down the 30.06 signs and replaced them with these, though they look to be a few years old.
    On campus-yes. In buildings, stadiums, etc.,-no
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array BenGoodLuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ag86 View Post
    Check the signs on the entrances to the school properties; at least one district (Plano) has 30.06 signs on the entrances to all parking lots.
    Those signs are not legal at the entrance of the parking lot. They don't need to be posted at all, as it's legal to carry concealed in the parking lot, but not in the school buildings.

    http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Interne...rms/CHL-16.pdf (TEXAS CONCEALED
    HANDGUN LAWS AND SELECTED STATUTES 2011- 2012)


    Pg. 36:
    PC 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an
    offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or
    goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in
    Section 46.05(a):
    (1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution,
    any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or
    educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation
    vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or
    educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written
    regulations or written authorization of the institution;

    Page 38:
    (f) In this section:
    (3) “Premises” means a building or a portion of a building. The
    term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or
    walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
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  9. #39
    Member Array TDH1961's Avatar
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    We have a couple websites here in Ga that puts the law into plan English. Both are run by lawyers and are free. Georgia Conceal Carry and Georgia packing .org. Maybe there is a website for Texas. And there is a free app that you can look up the gun laws of any state it is called Legal Heat. Hope this helps. In Ga if you got out of you car while carry you were in violation of the law. If you stayed in you car in Georgia it can be any parking lot on school grounds. Hope this helps. I looked at the app and it is confusing look up Texas law (PC46.03(A) (1)). Sorry that's as helpful as I can be.

  10. #40
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  11. #41
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    This bill has been up for vote recently in WI as well. I haven't heard anything yet about how it turned out.

    Wisconsin Bill 9, Allowing CCL Holders To Carry Guns On School Grounds is Up For Vote

  12. #42
    Member Array 3dfxMM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenGoodLuck View Post
    Those signs are not legal at the entrance of the parking lot. They don't need to be posted at all, as it's legal to carry concealed in the parking lot, but not in the school buildings.

    http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Interne...rms/CHL-16.pdf (TEXAS CONCEALED
    HANDGUN LAWS AND SELECTED STATUTES 2011- 2012)


    Pg. 36:
    PC 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an
    offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or
    goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in
    Section 46.05(a):
    (1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution,
    any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or
    educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation
    vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or
    educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written
    regulations or written authorization of the institution;

    Page 38:
    (f) In this section:
    (3) “Premises” means a building or a portion of a building. The
    term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or
    walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
    The signs are perfectly legal, they just aren't enforceable if it is a public school. If it is a private school, then they are enforceable.

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