Guns and bars - Page 2

Guns and bars

This is a discussion on Guns and bars within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by RTSteve What are your opinions on guns in bars? My view? Silly and ineffectual, like most all "gun free zone" type statutes ...

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Thread: Guns and bars

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTSteve View Post
    What are your opinions on guns in bars?
    My view? Silly and ineffectual, like most all "gun free zone" type statutes are. The primary effect of such legislation is to disarm upstanding people.

    Criminals will do what they do. Alcohol is a part of some criminals' lives, and not a part of others'. Upstanding citizens, though, aren't exactly the ones who are going to be risking themselves or others, in a place with a certain food or beverage, or not. So, such statutes will almost certainly be ignored by criminals and rarely, if ever, sidestepped by upstanding persons. So what's the point?

    We'd have far more benefit by outlawing MSG in food items than going after the firearms of upstanding citizens.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.


  2. #17
    Member Array yamadog35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billzfx4 View Post
    Indiana has no restrictions on carrying in any establishment that serves alcohol, and for the life of me I can't remember reading about any bloodbaths or shoot 'em ups.

    Just sayin'.
    Nope - we don't have blood in the streets because guns are allowed in bars. I'm much more concerned about the person leaving the bar behind the wheel of their car or truck.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    Different people react differently to alcohol. I can't drive safely with one beer in me, even if I'm under the .08 limit in Oregon. However, I'm not an angry/confrontational drunk at all. I've carried drinking in bars plenty of times, and have never come remotely close to trouble. I don't go to the sorts of bars where fights regularly break out, and I don't get mixed up with shady characters.

    I realize I'll probably get attacked for it, but I'm perfectly comfortable carrying while intoxicated. Plenty of people get mugged here leaving bars late at night. You have to know your own limits.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by reyno2ac View Post
    While the majority of people on this board are responsible gun owners and could be trusted in a bar with a gun, there are A LOT of people who should not have a gun in a bar. It's usually the few bad apples that ruin it for the rest of us, like it or not.
    A LOT of people who should not have a gun in a bar already have that gun in the bar, even tho it's illegal now. And yes, these lawbreakers ruin it for the rest of us.

  5. #20
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    Carry is allowed in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol in PA and also in nightclubs and it has not been a problem.
    You are also permitted to consume alcohol in a restaurant or bar while carrying and that has not been any sort of problem either. Just FYI.

  6. #21
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    Anti-gun Dan (from NY/NJ by way of MD) Casey at it again

    Another guns and alcohol don't mix voice heard from in the Roanoke Times (again).

    A case study of guns in bars - Roanoke.com

    Metro columnist Dan Casey: A case study of guns in bars
    By Dan Casey

    Gov. Bob McDonnell put his signature on a law Tuesday that has been long
    desired by the pro-handgun crowd.

    Starting July 1, concealed-carry permit holders may legally bring their hidden
    handguns into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol (but they may not
    legally drink).

    Whether this prospect frightens you, excites you, or instantly makes you feel
    more secure, here's a true story.

    It's about a couple of Virginia concealed-carry permit holders, and another
    guy, and events that unfolded in a Blacksburg bar on Aug. 30, 1997.

    Those permit-holders' names are Terry and Kerry Scales and today they are 35
    years old.

    They're identical twin brothers and they grew up as fine, upstanding,
    church-attending young men in Henry County.

    Their concealed handgun permits were approved by the Henry County Circuit
    Court on Aug. 28, 1997.

    The other guy's name is Richard Bullard.

    Though he was 6 feet 3 inches tall and 300 pounds, Bullard's friends and
    family described him as a gentle giant.

    He was 30, single and worked at a Sears store in Fort Walton Beach, Fla.

    His aunt, Peggy Darden of Biloxi, Miss., said this about him:

    "He was not an aggressive person. He could have been a great football player
    if he'd have had the killer instinct. He had the size but not the
    disposition."

    His sister, Phyllis Bullard, of Waco, Texas, told this newspaper:

    "He was so gentle you would not believe. ... I'd start an argument and fuss
    with him, and he wouldn't even open his mouth. I always called him my big
    gentle giant."

    On Aug. 30, 1997, Bullard was visiting our region to be part of a wedding
    party. One of his best friends, Tim Shoemaker, was marrying a woman from Giles
    County, Christina Beasley.

    The ceremony took place at a church in Giles County. After a reception in the
    church's gym, the bride and groom left for their honeymoon.

    Later that night, Bullard and some others from the wedding group decided to
    continue the party in Blacksburg.

    They wound up at Arnold's Restaurant, a since-closed bar in downtown
    Blacksburg.

    The Scales twins and their older brother Leon and their uncle, Marlin Scales,
    were at Arnold's as well. And the twins had handguns in their pockets.

    The trouble started because one of the men in the Scales group flirted with
    one of the women in the wedding party.

    That launched an argument, which became a shoving match, which may or may not
    have caused Bullard to grab Kerry Scales' neck and begin choking him.

    What happened next is not in dispute.

    Kerry Scales pulled his .357-caliber revolver out of his pocket and fired five
    shots into Bullard's chest and abdomen. Bullard crumpled to the dance floor.

    Someone else threw Terry Scales down on the ground. He pulled his .38-caliber
    revolver and wildly fired two shots.

    One struck Bullard in the head. The other struck Paul Shoemaker, the groom's
    cousin, in the chest. He was critically wounded but later recovered.

    Bullard was dead on the spot.

    The Scales brothers and their uncle ran out the door. The twins hid their
    handguns in some nearby trash cans. Police arrested them later, and a grand
    jury charged them with second-degree murder.

    A jury convicted them and each got 24 years. They're incarcerated at the
    Lawrenceville Correctional Center.

    At his sentencing hearing, Terry Scales' lawyer asked him this question:

    "If you had this to do all over again, would you have taken that gun in there
    that night?"

    "No, sir," Terry Scales replied.

    There you have it. One man dead, two brothers serving long prison sentences.
    Three lives ruined. Because of two handguns in a bar.

    And now, nearly 13 years later, it will be legal for concealed handgun permit
    holders to take their hidden pistols into Virginia bars and restaurants that
    serve alcohol.

    One argument you always hear from the gun lobby is this: Concealed guns are
    already in those bars, but they are being carried only by lawbreakers.

    The new law levels the playing field, they say.

    But this can only result in more guns in Virginia bars.

    That cannot be a good thing.

    Those permit-holding gun hiders will most likely be trained and sane (though
    not necessarily).

    And at least they will be law-abiding citizens with clean criminal records.

    Just as the Scales brothers were -- until Aug. 30, 1997.
    Last edited by DaveH; April 18th, 2010 at 07:29 PM.
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamadog35 View Post
    Nope - we don't have blood in the streets because guns are allowed in bars. I'm much more concerned about the person leaving the bar behind the wheel of their car or truck.
    And I probably should have noted this: When there is a shooting at a bar (the ones I read about anyway) it is usually out in the parking lot where people would retrieve from their vehicle anyway if it were banned inside.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTSteve View Post

    What are your opinions on guns in bars?
    Personally, I feel you should be allowed to carry your gun anywhere you wish.

    I would like to know what is inherently wrong with that notion?

    Now I also believe that if you commit a "party foul" with your gun, and they want you to spend 5 years in prison than accept the consequences for your actions or don't carry a gun anywhere.

    In other words, if you can't control yourself with a gun on your hip in a bar, school, post office or any other place, then you don't need to be carrying a gun at all.

    Guns are for grown-ups. Not for people without any self control or common sense.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  9. #24
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    +1, Bark'n.

    The lawmakers try, but you just can't legislate common sense.

    I don't drink and carry outside my home. I'd rather the government not prohibit for all, but I don't have a problem with prosecution of public drunk carry.

    No doubt, some of the DC folks can handle a little drink while carrying.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  10. #25
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    Weapons and alcohol do not mix period. If it serves alcohol, it's should not be allowed period.

    I would fight against it with everything I have, it's not a question of "If", but "When".

    I will say this for those who say that folks should be able to carry wherever they want and if they screw up, they deserve to loose their CCP license and such, well news story for you folks, it's always someone innocent that's on the receiving end of that screw up just like a drunk driver, someone innocent gets hurt or dies, not my wife. Stop it before it happens period!!!!!!!!!

    This is my view on it.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  11. #26
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    Laws against guns in establishments that serve alchohol fix nothing.

    There is a vast body of evidence that such laws are unneccessary - a false solution looking for a problem.

    I appreciate your personal position, Guardian, but no law should impose on the action of carrying by an honest citizen.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  12. #27
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    No one has pointed out one of the core fact ignored by ignorant antis in VA - THERE ARE NO BARS IN VA!!!! By law, any place that is licensed to serve alcohol in VA must also serve food. Consequently, most restaurants in VA serve alcohol. Until the Gov signed the bill this year making it effective on 1 July, the old law made it almost impossible to get a really good meal out and legally carry to protect one's family. Many thanks to Gov. McDonnell!

    When I lived in FL and now travel there or to PA and other states, I sometimes had a beer with dinner when carrying. The world didn't come to an end. It's a matter of personal choice. FWIW, way more people are killed by drunk drivers (almost 14,000/year) than will ever be scratched by legal concealed carriers who have consumed a beer or two (none in the stats that I can find).

    Again, it's a personal choice where legal. As with anything, if you're not comfortable with it, don't do it. Simple as that.
    "To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them"
    - George Mason, American Statesman (1725-92)

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    Laws against guns in establishments that serve alchohol fix nothing.

    There is a vast body of evidence that such laws are unneccessary - a false solution looking for a problem.

    I appreciate your personal position, Guardian, but no law should impose on the action of carrying by an honest citizen.
    Thanks Pistology, it's just my view, doesn't make me right or wrong, if they don't or do make it a law, I'll do my utmost to stay away from them as I do now. I do appreciate your words my friend.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBob View Post
    No one has pointed out one of the core fact ignored by ignorant antis in VA - THERE ARE NO BARS IN VA!!!! By law, any place that is licensed to serve alcohol in VA must also serve food. Consequently, most restaurants in VA serve alcohol. Until the Gov signed the bill this year making it effective on 1 July, the old law made it almost impossible to get a really good meal out and legally carry to protect one's family. Many thanks to Gov. McDonnell!

    When I lived in FL and now travel there or to PA and other states, I sometimes had a beer with dinner when carrying. The world didn't come to an end. It's a matter of personal choice. FWIW, way more people are killed by drunk drivers (almost 14,000/year) than will ever be scratched by legal concealed carriers who have consumed a beer or two (none in the stats that I can find).

    Again, it's a personal choice where legal. As with anything, if you're not comfortable with it, don't do it. Simple as that.
    Actually TBob that's not correct. You could not CC, but OC was and still is perfectly legal. I've carried in restaurants from Richmond up throughout NoVA and VA Beach, and to Roanoke and Charlottesville. Switch to OC and go about my business. Never had a problem in the 11 years I've been doing it.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Actually TBob that's not correct. You could not CC, but OC was and still is perfectly legal. I've carried in restaurants from Richmond up throughout NoVA and VA Beach, and to Roanoke and Charlottesville. Switch to OC and go about my business. Never had a problem in the 11 years I've been doing it.
    hence the Virginia-Tuck.

    I, too, have Virginia-Tucked in restaurants all over the Commonwealth -- with very little reaction from anyone, the vast majority of the time.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

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