Even with intense training ..........

This is a discussion on Even with intense training .......... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'll wager we would have to allow for some luck! By this I mean the degree of BG incapacitation we might expect - which may ...

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Thread: Even with intense training ..........

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    Even with intense training ..........

    I'll wager we would have to allow for some luck!

    By this I mean the degree of BG incapacitation we might expect - which may be way different from what we might hope for.

    Imagine we fire only two COM - one shot traverses the stomach and apart from perforation does little else, misses spine too - bad news for BG but he ain't quitting yet!

    Second shot hits close to mid line - lower sternum - too low to hit heart and too central to perforate aorta. BG is still well capable. Spine still intact.

    OTOH - of those two shots, one could perforate aorta and second could perforate heart - maybe 5 - 10 seconds (worrying enough) and BG not down but - maybe shocked enough to be in trouble and soon out of the game. Spinal hit too inclusive within those two could also have him down even if not out.

    So much would depend on IMO the luck factor as to whether enough damage can be done - we are after all concerned with stopping the threat. This predicates I think the dictum of going to slide lock - rather than 2 COM - ''and assess''. Whether under severe stress a ''lights out'' head shot can even be effectively administered is perhaps debatable too.

    So what I am saying is - the sometimes quoted ''2 shots may be enough'' - is maybe not enough at all - and thus some semblance of reasonable capacity is useful.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    What almost never gets discussed when shooting is the state of mind that the perp is in...and it does make a difference.

    Drugs,alcohol,stress,rage,fear, all of them can make someone that wants to kill you for whatever reason, very hard to stop.

    In my way of thinking, its better to keep shooting until the threat stops. If that requires shooting to slide lock, reloading and shooting again...so be it.

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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns
    What almost never gets discussed when shooting is the state of mind that the perp is in...and it does make a difference.

    Drugs,alcohol,stress,rage,fear, all of them can make someone that wants to kill you for whatever reason, very hard to stop.

    In my way of thinking, its better to keep shooting until the threat stops. If that requires shooting to slide lock, reloading and shooting again...so be it.
    +1 to that

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    the state of mind that the perp is in
    Excellent point HG and one I should have made.

    Of course, physiologically speaking, if the damage is adequate even the PCP addict should drop. But it does seem almost super human acts are carried out by folks well spaced on ''stuff''.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    The double tap has gotten many killed. Shoot 'em to the ground? In the time it takes me to fall to the ground I can empty more than a hi-cap. I practice movement off the line of force to cover with a quick five shot string (I call a pent) rising from the pelvis to the head, then scan for more trouble before the reload. Another CHRIS thread that makes you go hmmmm?
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

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    Member Array Hunting Coyotes's Avatar
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    Hotguns,

    I agree. What ever it takes to stop the threat. Just don't stop too long or hesitate to assess how efective your shots have been. When the BG is no longer in your sights and no longer a threat,stop shooting. We shoot to stop...we shoot to live.

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    Senior Member Array Rugerman's Avatar
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    I think it is alot like a fistfight. when I was a kid and my father taught me how to protect myself. Other kids that would throw one punch and then back off. My father taught me to go in punching until the other guy was no longer a threat. I think the same applies here.
    George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed."

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    The zipper

    As part of the threat focused skills that we teach, we train our students to be able to make hits all a long their draw stroke, whether that be one handed or two handed.

    In the two handed method, the shots are fired as soon as the hands come together (count 3.) We continue to shoot as we extend up and out. I consistantly get 4-5 hits zippering up the thoracic cavity before I reach full extention (at logical distances.) If the head shot is still there it is taken immediately, but requires a shift in the focal point. The focal shift goes from the threat to the sights for the cranial ocular cavity.

    One handed we work with the elbow up/elbow down drawstroke. This is the fastest way that I have ever seen to get hits on the threat. The weapon is drawn from the holster (elbow up) and immediately oriented towards the threat by crashing the elbow back down onto the hip area (elbow down.) The shots are taken as soon as the elbow makes contact with the body. This is basically the FAS 1/2 hip. The shots are taken as you extend up and out through the draw stroke, through 3/4 hip, through point shoulder, and up to line of sight. Once again the focal plane is shifted from the threat, to the sights for the cranial ocular cavity, if the threat is still there. Once again this a 4-5 shot zipper, but this one runs from abdomen to upper thoracic cavity, before the sighted head shot.

    The old shoot two and assess simply does not make any sense. The training of oneself to drop down "hard to the gaurd" could be ingraining something that could cost you your life. Shoot until you have eliminated the threat. You do not have to lower your gun to see if the threat is still a threat. It will be plain to see without putting yourself in a disadvantaged position.

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    Thumbs up Sweatnbullets ~ Double Ditto

    The old shoot two and assess simply does not make any sense.

    If the head shot is still there it is taken immediately, but requires a shift in the focal point. The focal shift goes from the threat to the sights for the cranial ocular cavity.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    I like the "stitch" technique posted by sweatnbullets. If you can get a round or two off into the pelvic area of the oncoming attacker, his state of mind may not matter if you can deliver those shots into that pelvic area. If you can put rounds in there, state of mind makes no difference if the BG simply cant physically walk anymore. Shatter something in the pelvic region as part of putting rounds on target could make the difference.
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    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)

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    I overheard the other day someone say "just keep shooting until you hear 'click, click'" and know you are out of rounds in case the BG grabs your weapon and tries to use it against you.

    Of course, I think it is somewhat situational, since if I've got the BG on the ground after two, I'm not going to shoot anymore and if he's some buddies hanging around I want to be ready.


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    Slide lock or click can't be good, if they're avoidable. We ultimately shoot one-handed so the off hand can hold a spare reload and fend or balance if necessary. The 1911 mag especially makes an effective contact weapon. Ditto sweatnbullets except we avoid elbow/hip contact. It messes up the natural force/recoil cadence of the string, we are moving off the line of force to cover or in a forward "J" fashon, and the static elbow contact slows the draw to sight plane for the brain stem shot, if necessary. The five shot string is just arbitrary. In reality, it doesn't take any more time to shoot 4 or 5 than the double. Now, if there are accomplices, we teach to place one in each from right to left (or priority) and then repeat as needed, all with reload ready in off hand, which can still be used (palm up) for support (much like holding a flashlight.)
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

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    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
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    So, I'm thinking that my carrying a total of 40 rounds for my Glock 23 wasn't just the product of mild paranoia. . .

    mm
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

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    Combat is always 89% LUCK, but for the other 11% you had really better have your *stuff* in one bag, if you don't its Bad Juju on you.

    The old addage about Work Hard, Train Hard is reality.

    As for shooting Bad Guys and Bad Girls, single, double or
    tripple tap them, depending on how many there is. Then scan for who is still doing the badbad and double tap them again. Apply as needed. How many times you shoot one person depends on the number of assialints, their weapons (shoot the bad boy with the shotgun first or the closest bad guy to you) and their proximity to you. You have to assess the situation immediately, that is the reason training is so necessary if you'd like to keep your good Karma......

    Jungle Work
    Last edited by Jungle Work; June 4th, 2006 at 12:05 PM.

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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Work
    Combat is always 89% LUCK, but for the other 11% you had really better have your *stuff* in one bag, if you don't its Bad Juju on you.

    The old addage about Work Hard, Train Hard is reality.

    As for shooting Bad Guys and Bad Girls, single, double or
    tripple tap them, depending on how many there is. Then scan for who is still doing the badbad and double tap them again. Apply as needed. How many times you shoot one person depends on the number of assialints, their weapons (shoot the bad boy with the shotgun first or the closest bad guy to you) and their proximity to you. You have to assess the situation immediately, that is the reason training is so necessary if you'd like to keep your good Karma......

    Jungle Work
    Nice!
    I would also like to add that priority can also be dictated by who is further along in the OODA loop. Which adversary has made eye contact with you and has began working through his loop.

    A BG at 30 feet, with a HG in his waistband ,that has seen you could be a higher priority than a BG at ten feet, with a SG that is looking the other way, and focused on doing his crimminal deeds in another direction.

    Situationally dependent.

    Visual input is such a key component to what we practice and train. Seeing what you need to see to get the hits is only a small portion of the visual "big picture."

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