April 22nd, 2010 10:21 PM
Attacked by someone with BB gun...
No, I wasn't attacked, but our newspaper has a "Police Blotter" section, which recently told about a group of juveniles who had been robbing people at "gunpoint". They did several of these attacks over a few days, at one point hitting one of their victims with the gun butt. When they were finally caught, it turns out the gun was actually a BB gun.
I told my wife about this, and she asked what I would have done if they had tried to rob me by threatening me with a "gun"...
I answered her that, if I believed my life was in danger, I would have shot the guy with the gun...even if it later turned out to be a BB gun.
But then I started thinking: aside from the trauma of shooting someone who turned out to not be an actual lethal threat, what would the law be about that? If you BELIEVE you are being threatened by something that appears to be a gun, you are in fear for your life. If you shot the "attacker", how would the law view that?
April 22nd, 2010 10:26 PM
Pretty sure if they had a BB gun and it looked real then the person using the BB gun has the intent to cause you to believe that your life is in danger so use of deadly force would be appropriate.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"
April 22nd, 2010 10:30 PM
Looks like someone needs to go find a class on self defense and the law...
Training. It's not just bullets anymore.
As for the law...
You may want to check out post #24 here...
See that post, section 2...
April 22nd, 2010 10:56 PM
As always, if you're still concerned about any legal questions, speak with a competent attorney who is skilled in the subject matter in your state. Check Washington's 9A.16.* RCW, for the use-of-force statutes.
Originally Posted by RicT
In Oregon, you're certainly able to defend yourself and others against violence or impending violence. The "reasonable man" standard applies, in Oregon, as it does in many places. But basically, if you are facing a felony attack on you or others, or the impending threat of deadly force, the law supports your right to defend yourself using the degree of force you deem necessary.
From the Oregon Revised Statutes:
161.205 Use of physical force generally.
(5) A person may use physical force upon another person in self-defense or in defending a third person, in defending property, in making an arrest or in preventing an escape
, as hereafter prescribed in chapter 743, Oregon Laws 1971. [1971 c.743 §21; 1981 c.246 §1].
161.209 Use of physical force in defense of a person.
Except as provided in ORS 161.215 and 161.219, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person for self-defense or to defend a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force, and the person may use a degree of force which the person reasonably believes to be necessary for the purpose.
[1971 c.743 §22]
161.219 Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person.
Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209, a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:
(1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force
against a person; or
(2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling
(3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force
against a person. [1971 c.743 §23].
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
April 22nd, 2010 11:03 PM
Unless in that micro-second, I can determine beyond any doubt it's a BB gun, if opportunity allows me to draw and give fire, well thats what I will be doing. Life gives hard lessons, hope it don't cost the BG his life for the lesson.
An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.
April 22nd, 2010 11:05 PM
This is my brother's boss. He didn't serve any time, and it was deemed they did not use excessive force.
Man armed with BB gun killed in robbery attempt
Tuesday, September 05, 2000 Columbia, SC
By KIMATHI LEWIS
A man armed with a BB gun died while he and his partner tried to rob a pair of Charlotte businessmen Thursday outside a motel on Broad River Road, police said.
The robbers didn't know these were ex-military officers, one of whom built his career on teaching anti-terrorism skills to state officials, according to newspaper reports.
Jonathan James Berry, 32, died outside the Best Inn at 1029 Briargate Circle after the businessmen shot him three times in the chest and once in the side, Richland County Coroner Frank Barron said.
Police charged Berry's partner, Richard Sean Harley, 32, of Shirlington Road, with attempted armed robbery and conspiracy to commit armed robbery, according to jail records. Harley was not injured.
Harley, who has history of stealing, driving and domestic violence offenses, was being held in the Richland County jail on $50,000 bail, reports showed.
Richland County sheriff's spokesman Cpl. Chris Cowan said Thomas Bullins and John Nettles will not be charged in the 1 a.m. shooting.
"They were lawfully carrying weapons," Cowan said. "They were well within their rights."
The men did not know the guns aimed at them weren't real, Cowan said.
Bullins told investigators he and Nettles were leaving their room when Berry approached what he thought was a handgun and raised it to Bullins' face.
Berry demanded money from Bullins, but Bullins grabbed Berry's forearm and the two got into a struggle, officials said.
Bullins then reached into his pocket and pulled out a .22-caliber handgun, firing one shot that hit Berry in the aorta, Barron said.
That turned out to be the fatal bullet, Barron said.
After the first shot was fired, Nettles came out of his room, officials said.
Nettles fired from a .45 semiautomatic, hitting Berry three times in the chest as he continued to struggle with Bullins, Barron said.
The men, who are also trained paramedics, performed CPR on Berry, but it was too late, the coroner said.
The men went after Harley, who was nearby at the time of the holdup, but later fled, Cowan said.
He was caught near the pool at the motel, officials said. They held him until sheriff's deputies arrived.
After the men recovered the weapons from the thieves, they realized they weren't real, Cowan said.
April 22nd, 2010 11:07 PM
We had an incident in the past year or two where some guy decided to rob either a burger joint or a pizza joint. The guy at the register gave the kid the money in the register. The kid then said to get to the safe and open it up. The worker was like you don't want me to do that, but the kid made him do it anyways. The dude opened the safe and pretty much the only thing in it was a .45 which he promptly used to shoot the kid... He was never even taken into custody.
All this is also dependent on what state you are living in. So know your state laws.
Protection is a responsibility not just a right.
April 22nd, 2010 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by MitchellCT
Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!
Stupidity should be painful.
April 23rd, 2010 12:05 AM
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.
Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.
April 23rd, 2010 12:35 AM
It seems to happen regularly. The general feeling seems to be that you can't know it's a BB gun till the incident is over. I have not seen anyone have an issue in this area. But like was posted earlier, know your state laws. Some states would rather you take the bullet than the BG it seems.
I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!
"Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"
April 23rd, 2010 12:43 AM
Well, if the law forced you to inspect (even at night) every realistic looking gun being pointed at you by some psychotic junkie/mugger/murderer as to whether it's a BB gun, an unloaded real gun, a reproduction toy gun, or a real honest-to-god Colt 1911 loaded with .45ACP +P Hydra-Shoks, then there would be a heck of a lot more dead LEOs and citizens out there. Self defense, realistically, would then become meaningless if this were so.
'Course, since I'm not a lawyer, nor am I familiar with every state law, I can't really speak for New Jersey, Kalifornia, NYC, Washington DC, or Canada…
April 23rd, 2010 01:59 AM
There really is almost no time to make a determination. Especially in low light conditions.
Can you make the split second determination that the above image is a airsoft gun?
I know I can't.
The way I look at it, anyone who points a object that looks like a gun at me is going to get a reaction they are not going to like.
April 23rd, 2010 02:29 AM
I'm not sure I'd pass that test.
Originally Posted by ZombieShoot
That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...
Don’t mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.
Convenire Volui Spectatus
April 23rd, 2010 08:57 AM
The business end of a BB gun looks a lot like the business end of a .22. You would have the right to defend yourself, especially since these guys had been doing this for a while. After all, the law will prosecute for assault with a deadly weapon even if said weapon is a toy gun. It's not the victim's responsibility to determine whether the weapon is real or not.
Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
"For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield
April 23rd, 2010 09:15 AM
Same type of thing happened here a year ago. Two guys force their way into an insurance agents home/office. Both guys are armed. Home owner grabs his handgun from the shelf behind desk and puts three shots into one of the bad guys. When the police get there it turns out they both were carrying airsoft guns. I guess they didn't want to pay for real guns. The agent didn't get charged, because obviously a "normal" person would believe their life was in danger.
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