Concealed Carry & the People Who Apply/Get a Permit

Concealed Carry & the People Who Apply/Get a Permit

This is a discussion on Concealed Carry & the People Who Apply/Get a Permit within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi all, Just a comment/rant... I took my state Concealed Carry permit class (Tennessee), I thought it was quite "lame". The legal aspects and obligations ...

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Thread: Concealed Carry & the People Who Apply/Get a Permit

  1. #1
    Member Array DukeShooter's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Concealed Carry & the People Who Apply/Get a Permit

    Hi all,

    Just a comment/rant...

    I took my state Concealed Carry permit class (Tennessee), I thought it was quite "lame". The legal aspects and obligations section of the class (Lecture) was ok but when it came to the "practical" part of the class it became sad/funny/frightening. About 75% of the people in the class had not even owned a handgun before and it get's "better" LOL. Most people in the class needed SERIOUS Handgun handling and marksmanship training. I wouldn't trust the 75% of the "beginners" with a BB GUN, much less a loaded handgun! The thought of these handgun "newbies" out there, not having shot more than 100 rounds ever and probably little to none in their carry gun just plain scares me.

    As far as marksmanship, our state requires only that you "hit" the paper (read in the black part of the B27 target) not shoot for score! The qualification was 12 rounds at 3 yards, 12 rounds at 7 yards, and 24 rounds at 25 yards. You need a score of 70% or higher to pass. You DON'T have to shoot with the gun you plan to carry, so you can shoot with a .22 target pistol if you prefer! This to me is crazy! Qualify with a .22 and carry a .38, .40, etc., geeze! I'll bet when they get their permits they buy their carry rig and pistol right away and not practice to become proficient with it! If they get in a "shooting" situation, I hope I am not there, they would probably hit me and totally miss the bad guy! I can just see this one lady in my class, she will probably close her eyes and flinch bad when her gun goes off, she had a terrible time with the .22 and barely got 70%!

    Hell, I shot as fast as I could with the little Ruger .22 auto into center mass just to get it over with and watch the beginners shoot (which was scary as hell!) 1/2 the time the beginners nearly turned around with a loaded handgun to ask the instructor a question or for help!

    IMHO, the Gun safety and marksmanship part should be MORE comprehensive, require you to qualify with your weapon you will begin to carry with, qualify with a realistic score (70% in the "center mass") similar to the required qualification of our peace officers. NO .22's and certainly not the almost "just show up, sit there, shoot sort of ok and get a permit". I was very unimpressed, I expected a better class for the money. Of course in two days, 5 hours of class/range time what can we expect?

    A funny side note, one fella commented that he was going to use the "birdshot" rounds for his pistol to just "wound and scare off" the bad guy. The SWAT Officer teaching the class just freaked out and asked the guy if he just wanted to piss the bad guy off so he would really beat the **** out of him before killing him...LOL. This fool persisted about it and the SWAT officer told him he better shoot to stop the threat, not shoot to wound! the guy finally got it and shut up...lol

    Are other states this bad?

    End of rant, Peace Out!
    Mike

  2. #2
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    I'm not exactly sure what's bothering you, but I'll throw this out there:

    My state requires no training or written test.

    Do you think we are less capable or responsible concealed carriers?

    As far as I know, our cc-related accidents and crimes are not statistically different from other states.
    Fortune favors the bold.

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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Well, at least they see the need and are doing something about it. Hopefully they will get the familiarity, practice, and better educated. We were not all born with the knowledge nor the skills.

  4. #4
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    Tennessee's is one of the better permits to have. If your instructor didn't have you shoot at 15 yards, he wasn't following the rules of the course.

    The class isn't geared toward gunfighters. It is designed to be very similar to NRA Basic Pistol. The Department of Safety came up with the syllabus, not your instructor. If you don't think it's up to par, call them. While you have them on the phone, tell them to make a new video for me.

    I suppose you are going to carry your Ruger 22 instead of a centerfire gun, since that is what you shot at the course. After all
    You DON'T have to shoot with the gun you plan to carry, so you can shoot with a .22 target pistol if you prefer! This to me is crazy! Qualify with a .22 and carry a .38, .40, etc., geeze!
    Even though the rules say you can qualify with your 22, you have sense enough to only shoot the gun you plan on carrying, right?
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

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    New Member Array bigbake's Avatar
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    well in VA they only require some form of competence submitted with your CHP paperwork. something like a basic NRA pistol course or show your hunter's license. for me i took an online basic pistol course (that i got for free since SCCC set it up). the course was very basic, but really emphasized safety as the main concern, as well as went over parts of guns.

    i was raised with guns and shoot them regularly, but for a total newbie to take the course and put in for his CHP would raise my eyebrow. this requires no shooting or even a minute of handling a firearm. watch a series of videos, then take a test. print certificate. file paperwork.

    not that i believe newcomers to guns would hop right into getting their CHP, but if they did it might be a problem. i told both my roommates to at least take the course so they could get the certificate (neither owns guns or has ever shot more than a BB gun). both kind of brushed it off, but every time i bring a new gun how they want to see it, and they ask questions (gotta start somewhere...)

  6. #6
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    Sounds to me like those "beginners" that you're making fun of were doing the right thing by taking a class designed to teach them how to defend themselves safely. Not everyone with a CWP plans to spend every weekend at the range shooting. I agree that if you carry a gun, you should know how to shoot it proficiently, but c'mon, it doesn't take a world-class marksman to defend themselves against a mugger 3 feet away. Maybe instead of being so critical, you should have NICELY offered to take some of those "beginners" to the range for a little more shooting after the class??

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    I understand your frustration...and caution.

    However, IMO, there should be no training requirement...but should be HIGHLY encouraged (see Alaska, Vermont for their permit requirements ) to seek additional training and education.

    The moment anything is mandated by the state prior to gun ownership, is the moment we lose the FREEDOM of gun ownership (see NY, NJ, CA, IL, MD as extreme cases).

    The best that we can do as gun owners is to encourage these people to seek out additional training...and join forums like this one for them to continue their initial discussions and realize how important training is if they own or carry a firearm. It's about free will...we don't want the state to infringe on this any more than they already do.

    Respectfully...
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    Just throwing this out there but CA requires you use the pistol you plan on carrying in your CCW class.

  9. #9
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    My main concern is that the newbies know how to safely handle a weapon and not do something stupid with it. Their marksmanship is only important when and if they get into a bad situation. And let's face it, they won't be shooting at a BG from 100 feet away, it'll be much closer.
    I wouldn't be so concerned as long as they follow the basic gun do's/dont's.
    "The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree..."
    Nunn v. State GA 1848

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Colorado requires a minimum of 5 hours class time (READ - Lecture). No proficiency.

    The place where I took my class pretty much covered the basic requirements (safety and legal aspects) in a couple of hours, then turned into a 3 hour BS session of the instructor pushing his political agenda.

    The questions that were brought up by the other 30 odd students in my class were akin to the OP. Made my butt pucker.

    Initially I felt that more training should be required. Now nearly 3 years later, looking back at it and seriously analyzing my issue with the requirements, it is not so much that there should be a required training to get a CCW, more the person obtaining one should absolutely with out a doubt be able to know, and live by the 4 basic firearm rules, and have a decent understanding of the States "Use of Force" laws.

    I understand that it is a right that should not be restricted, but when you take a person that has never had a gun, let alone fire one, stand up and decide that their personal safety is their responsibility, safety and use of force is a "Need to know".

    I am a range safety officer for my local IDPA club. I am usually part of the team overseeing the new shooters. I've seen some frightening demonstrations of peoples lack of knowledge and skill. We coach them along and help them as best we can. Maybe 1 in 100 we actually end their participation for the day (disqualify) due to blatant and repeat safety violations (muzzle direction, finger off the trigger while moving to next position...). Hitting "no shoots" or flat out missing the targets just affects the score. Never mind skills like draw, operation of the safety (if required) and firing.

    Interesting would be if the states would drop the "Training Class" and switch to a mildly comprehensive written test. Knowledge, and application of that knowledge are two different things, but if a student can pass the test, they at least knew the answer to the questions.
    Sticks

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  11. #11
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    I believe that it is RKBA, not RKBAAYHT (Right to Keep and Bear Arms After You've Had Training)...I'm just sayin'...

    I would prefer that others take the time to 'practice SOMETHING', but that's certainly a personal choice.
    We've all read through articles where a little old lady without much training has saved her own hide by dusting off some dirtbag who had broken into her house.
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    re

    i think at least some range time should be required - book knowledge just isn't enough - there are some ranges down here i won't even go to because its like the wild west in there - guns waving around all over the place,people carrying water bottles in,rounds bouncing off target hangers-just freakin scary!!
    "Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."

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    New Member Array deboog93's Avatar
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    NC is the same way TN is we are required to shoot a b27 target I use 9 inch paper plates just to make sure the marksmenship is there. The state pretty much mandates what I teach as far as the course outline and material. So not like I can stray from that too much since there are topics I must touch on. Yes inexerienced people will show up and take your class, and it is up to the instructor to certify these people as being comptent with a firearm. I have had to work with a few on their stance and the way they hold the gun. But as far as the basics as what the state requires these people satisfied the requirements. I stress the importance of practice and range time with the pistol you will carry. I instruct them to spend time with their UNLOADED firearm practicing how to draw from concealment and engage their target. I tell them that LEO's go through days of training with their firearms and even they have accidental shootings. Thing to remember is the states usually do not require followup training for their ccw people. Around where I live there is only two ranges for the public to shoot at and they do not allow you to draw your weapon. So unless you have a buddy with land somewhere safe what are they supposed to do for more training. I believe in 2nd ammendment rights, but I also see the need for more training for people who typically are not the gun community type. The NC video we have to show has some scenarios in it concerning when to shoot and not. Part of the law states as soon as you consume alcohol you forfeit your right to carry. One of the scenarios the state uses is a guy they label 'the drunk" staggering out of a bar getting into a fight where the person he picks a fight with draws a knife and the drunk draws his concealed carry gun? But mean while the first video I just played for my students tells them no alcohol. Who is writing these scripts and proof reading??? Crazy the state can not even make a video about their own law correctly

  14. #14
    Member Array mrjam2jab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeroesch View Post
    Hi all,

    Just a comment/rant...

    I took my state Concealed Carry permit class (Tennessee), I thought it was quite "lame". The legal aspects and obligations section of the class (Lecture) was ok but when it came to the "practical" part of the class it became sad/funny/frightening. About 75% of the people in the class had not even owned a handgun before and it get's "better" LOL. Most people in the class needed SERIOUS Handgun handling and marksmanship training. I wouldn't trust the 75% of the "beginners" with a BB GUN, much less a loaded handgun! The thought of these handgun "newbies" out there, not having shot more than 100 rounds ever and probably little to none in their carry gun just plain scares me.
    We ALL started the same way.

    In PA...no test...written or on range...no class...just submit app for License to Carry Firearms.

  15. #15
    Member Array DukeShooter's Avatar
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    Smile

    Thanks guys I kind of know this post would bring out some "interesting" responses. I guess I am more of a hard A.... than most when it comes to handguns. I agree with all the comments, I talked to a guy offline that had a permit in Florida a few years back, all he had to do was go the County Sheriff, fill out a form and viola! he had a permit. So bottom line as one poster said, TN is one of the better states as far as qualification with the firearm. I was impressed with the handgun safety part of the course, the SWAT officer went through it very well and covered both revolvers and automatics very well (NRA Style too).

    On a side note, I decided to qualify with a rental .22 because it was so CHEAP at $10.00. A box of the carry ammo that I use in my GLOCK 33 (Federal .357 SIG 125gr HST LE) is almost 4 times that (renting the .22 included ammo). I would have been happy to qualify with my GLOCK 33 and my carry ammo or some target handloads I use for practice. When I went to the class I thought we would be required to qualify with a carry gun. What the heck though I decided to save money and shoot I hadn't shot a Ruger Mark II .22 Auto in a long time. That little gun with the bull barrel is a pleasure to shoot and now dang it I want one! Have to sneak it into the gun safe while my wife is out of the house though!

    Anyway, Peace Out!

    Mike

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