Firearms banned? (FL question) - Page 2

Firearms banned? (FL question)

This is a discussion on Firearms banned? (FL question) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Some of us sometimes hunt from vessels; I use a canoe without motor so there's no chance of an illegal shot while 'still moving under ...

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Thread: Firearms banned? (FL question)

  1. #16
    Member Array FLSquirrelHunter's Avatar
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    Some of us sometimes hunt from vessels; I use a canoe without motor so there's no chance of an illegal shot while 'still moving under power' but some folks use regular bass boats. A 'No Firearms' sign would be useful for telling vessel hunters not to use that ramp for launch/recovery. By itself, the sign has no effect on concealed carry.

    Tally XD mentioned WMAs. That rule (one of the most stupid we ever had) did change. Today it's legal to carry concealed in a WMA (including Raiford) whenever you have the right to be there, even when the WMA is closed to hunting. (Some WMAs, like 12 Mile Swamp, are closed to all public use for most of the year.)

    That said, there are a few places into which you can venture afloat, intentionally or just enjoying the day, which really are federally defined Gun Free Zones. There are locks on the Cross-Florida Greenway which border on Caravelle WMA, and a Navy Range on the North side of the lower Ocklawaha. Those are federally designated GFZs. (Strange, a bombing range being a GFZ...) I know NAS Jax and P-cola have buffer zones, as do MacDill, Tyndall, and parts of Eglin. And of course stay away from "the" Cape and nuclear power plants if you are further downstate. Just have a look for federal lands when preparing your float plan.
    Last edited by FLSquirrelHunter; April 27th, 2010 at 08:55 AM. Reason: Edited for Raiford


  2. #17
    Member Array hipthunder's Avatar
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    re

    good advice above......the marine issue is whole other bucket of worms...as a boat captain i can attest to this - the FLMP can take a zero tolerance stance with regard to firearms afloat if your not careful where you are going - read your charts carefully
    "Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."

  3. #18
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    Matt, I think you answered it with your "Preemption" comments. Hopefully, I can get by the ramp and see exactly what statue is quoted on the sign. Most likely, it's outdated or just a plain scare tactic.

    The ramp is open 24/7 and a lot of people fish there at night with little or no lighting. They even have a "Use as your own risk" sign posted on the catwalk. While not my concern, we all know what type of person may be hanging out beneath the bridges.

    As for the "Signs mean nothing," I accept that position on a business door, but when big brother is concerned, I tend to err on the safe side and seek confirmation rather than confrontation.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  4. #19
    Member Array paragon1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hipthunder View Post
    keep in mind that in some of the larger municipalities in florida cities can ordinance certain rules pertaining to firearms - this could be the case here - if this is a city facility they can post the area with no firearms allowed just as a business can do so - there is a county park where i live that has an outdoor range located within park boundries and they have very strict rules about bringing and displaying firearms within the facility - i would suspect you are dealing with an ordinance at the boat ramp if it is city or county property - an attorney or the sheriffs office could tell you for sure
    WRONG.

  5. #20
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    explain article above from Palm Beach?? for the third time didn't say it was legal - just said it IS done
    "Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."

  6. #21
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    An update:
    Here's the "quoted" reference on the sign--Martin County Ordinance Chapter 17
    (The boat ramp in in Palm City, Fl. [Leighton Park?])

    I tried to find something online and, short of making a few phone calls, struck out. If someone wishes to pursue it and have better luck, I'd appreciate if they let me know what they find. I believe it's either an old, outdated sign that no one has made them correct or an attempt to bluff until called on it.

    I believe WMAs can only set the hunting regs, not possession of firearms. But I could be wrong. Either way, nothing on the sign designates it as a WMA.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  7. #22
    Member Array hipthunder's Avatar
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    Vet - i believe the county attorney for Martin county would be the one to clear it up - seems when the signage issue is challenged the county attorney is the one who reviews the legality (which we already know) - municipalities are stepping over the boundries with this bluffing tactic as the palm beach case shows - now that you have witnessed another case of this i am constantly on the lookout now for signs that are not within the law and i am sure there are more out there
    "Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."

  8. #23
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    They can post all they want. No weight under the law. However, if they ask you to leave because of it, you are then legally obligated to do so.

    It's probably in response to people who get wasted on their boats and start shooting at the water. Keep your CCW concealed and you shouldn't have a problem.

  9. #24
    jbs
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul34 View Post
    They can post all they want. No weight under the law. However, if they ask you to leave because of it, you are then legally obligated to do so.

    It's probably in response to people who get wasted on their boats and start shooting at the water. Keep your CCW concealed and you shouldn't have a problem.
    Of course if asked to leave I would and settle it with the city atty, but, being a public park, why would you be legally obligated to leave?
    This assumes the signage violates the state laws and is in itself illegal.
    If I need to oil a gun, I go to the beach.
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  10. #25
    Member Array hipthunder's Avatar
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    jbs correct - thats my view - sign not within the law - no obligation to leave - of course challenging it might get ugly but still no obligation if you havenot violated other park rules -
    "Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    An update:
    Here's the "quoted" reference on the sign--Martin County Ordinance Chapter 17
    (The boat ramp in in Palm City, Fl. [Leighton Park?])

    I tried to find something online and, short of making a few phone calls, struck out. If someone wishes to pursue it and have better luck, I'd appreciate if they let me know what they find. I believe it's either an old, outdated sign that no one has made them correct or an attempt to bluff until called on it.

    I believe WMAs can only set the hunting regs, not possession of firearms. But I could be wrong. Either way, nothing on the sign designates it as a WMA.
    Looks like Martin County is trying to Prempt Florida state Law. They are saying in their ordinance that only off duty law enforcement officers can carry in parks.. WRONG. Their sign Means NOTHING.

    Note section 2:E

    Here is Martin County's ordinance:

    ARTICLE 1. - IN GENERAL


    Sec. 17.9. - Rules and regulations for Martin County Parks.
    17.9.A.
    The rules and regulations for Martin County Parks, including all parks, beaches, and beach access strips, and all other facilities or real property managed by the Martin County Parks and Recreation Department, are established as follows:
    1.
    All beaches, beach access strips, causeways and fishing piers shall be open 24 hours a day, except as necessary for the public health, safety or welfare. Any gates at entrances to any beach, beach access strip, causeway or fishing pier may only be closed when necessary for the public health, safety or welfare. All other County parks shall be open from 7:00 a.m. until 11:00 p.m., unless otherwise posted.
    2.
    It shall be unlawful for any person in any County park:
    a.
    To park vehicles, except in designated areas.
    b.
    To light a fire, except in designated fixtures.
    c.
    To set off fireworks, unless expressly permitted in writing by the County Administrator or his designee.
    d.
    To drive a motor vehicle, except in designated areas.
    e.
    To carry, possess, use, discharge, or have readily available, a firearm, weapon, or electric weapon, unless authorized pursuant to F.S. 790.052.

    f.
    To carry, possess, use, discharge, or have readily available, a BB gun, air rifle or paint ball gun, except for a facility specifically designed for such use.
    g.
    To have glass containers.
    h.
    To camp overnight, except in designated camping areas, and with a proper permit.
    i.
    To dive from any structure in any County park, except in designated areas at pool facilities.
    j.
    To dump.
    k.
    To golf in undesignated areas.
    l.
    To trespass or encroach on County park property.
    m.
    To have a horse or horseback ride, except in designated areas. No horses or horseback riding is permitted on beaches or causeways.
    n.
    To use County boat ramps for any purpose, except for launching boats and for fishing while the boat ramp is not being used by boaters. Dockage of boats at County boat ramps is prohibited, except during the launch or retrieval of the boat. Use of County docks or boat ramps for commercial purposes is prohibited without express written authorization by the Martin County Parks and Recreation Department.
    o.
    To disturb, destroy, remove or damage any cultural or natural resource including vegetation.
    p.
    To molest, harm, hunt, kill, trap, frighten, chase or shoot any animal, unless authorized by the Martin County Parks and Recreation Department or Martin County Sheriff's Office.
    q.
    To consume alcoholic beverages in any County park or in any right-of-way adjacent thereto, except in Hobe Sound Beach, Bathtub Beach, Stuart Beach, Jensen Beach, Sandsprit Park, Stuart Causeway, Jensen Causeway, and beach access strips, and then only during designated hours. Alcoholic beverages are permitted in Port Salerno Civic Center, Timer Powers Park and Indian River Side Park only with prior written approval of the Martin County Parks and Recreation Department.
    r.
    To use a cast net at Indian River Side Park.
    s.
    To enter posted protected seagrass areas by boat or personal water craft.
    t.
    To skateboard, skate, in-line skate, bicycle, use a scooter (motorized or non-motorized) or use a golf cart, except in designated areas or if used to assist a disabled person as defined pursuant to the Americans with Disabilities Act or Florida Statutes.
    3.
    It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, or to offer for sale to any person, any product, or service without the proper permits from Martin County Health Department and Martin County Parks and Recreation Department. Vendors with permits may sell food and nonalcoholic beverages for immediate consumption by persons in attendance in any park.
    4.
    F.S. 856.011 is hereby adopted and incorporated in this Code by reference.

    This is the ordiance they are citing....

    Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes :->2008->Ch0790->Section 052 : Online Sunshine


    790.052 Carrying concealed firearms; off-duty law enforcement officers.--

    (1) All persons holding active certifications from the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission as law enforcement officers or correctional officers as defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), (6), (7), (8), or (9) shall have the right to carry, on or about their persons, concealed firearms, during off-duty hours, at the discretion of their superior officers, and may perform those law enforcement functions that they normally perform during duty hours, utilizing their weapons in a manner which is reasonably expected of on-duty officers in similar situations. However, nothing in this subsection shall be construed to limit the right of a law enforcement officer, correctional officer, or correctional probation officer to carry a concealed firearm off duty as a private citizen under the exemption provided in s. 790.06 that allows a law enforcement officer, correctional officer, or correctional probation officer as defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), (3), (6), (7), (8), or (9) to carry a concealed firearm without a concealed weapon or firearm license. The appointing or employing agency or department of an officer carrying a concealed firearm as a private citizen under s. 790.06 shall not be liable for the use of the firearm in such capacity. Nothing herein limits the authority of the appointing or employing agency or department from establishing policies limiting law enforcement officers or correctional officers from carrying concealed firearms during off-duty hours in their capacity as appointees or employees of the agency or department.

    (2) The superior officer of any police department or sheriff's office or the Florida Highway Patrol, if he or she elects to direct the officers under his or her supervision to carry concealed firearms while off duty, shall file a statement with the governing body of such department of his or her instructions and requirements relating to the carrying of said firearms.
    02PSD4ME

  12. #27
    jbs
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    To carry, possess, use, discharge, or have readily available, a firearm, weapon, or electric weapon, unless authorized pursuant to F.S. 790.052.


    Right, they are saying unless you are LEO, you can't carry. This violates state law. They should reference their sign to F.S. 790.06.
    A letter or email to the county commisioner to be reviewed by the county atty's will probably get them to change their sign. If they fail to change it or remove it, a letter to the state Atty's office will result in action by the state to force them to change or remove.
    If I need to oil a gun, I go to the beach.
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  13. #28
    jbs
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    Here is a sample letter that the OP can send to the city or county to get the ball rolling (with permission from the original author).

    to Delores D. Menendez, City Attorney of Cape Coral.

    Dear Ms. Menendez,

    As a holder of a State of Florida Concealed Weapons/Firearms License in accordance with Chapter 790.06, Florida Statutes, I would like to point out that City Code 12-1/2-4 of the City of Cape Coral appears to be in conflict with state law, inasmuch as the City of Cape Coral is declaring authority to restrict firearms in city parks.

    City of Cape Coral City Code 12-1/2 (e) Firearms, weapons, explosives, missiles, and the like. (1) states, "Carrying of firearms, weapons, explosives, missiles, and the like. Other than in authorized permitted shooting areas, no person (except for authorized law enforcement officers) shall carry firearms of any description, air or gas guns, slingshots, explosives, fireworks or missile throwing or propelling devices within the park without specific written permit from the Director or his or her designee."

    Chapter 790.33, Florida Statutes states in part, "(1) PREEMPTION. --Except as expressly provided by general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or regulations relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances are hereby declared null and void. This subsection shall not affect zoning ordinances which encompass firearms businesses along with other businesses. Zoning ordinances which are designed for the purpose of restricting or prohibiting the sale, purchase, transfer, or manufacture of firearms or ammunition as a method of regulating firearms or ammunition are in conflict with this subsection and are prohibited."

    Additionally, "(3) POLICY AND INTENT. -- (a) It is the intent of this section to provide uniform firearms laws in the state; to declare all ordinances and regulations null and void which have been enacted by any jurisdiction other than state and federal, which regulate firearms, ammunition, or components thereof unless specifically authorized by this section or general law; and to require local jurisdictions to enforce state firearms laws."

    Finally, Chapter 790.06, Florida Statutes lists very specific places where concealed weapons/firearms licensees may not carry: "(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any career center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
    You will please note that city parks are not included in the state exclusion list. As such, verbiage in this or any other ordiance and/or verbiage and iconology (slash through firearm) that may exist on signs at park entrances imply an authority which the City of Cape Coral may not, in fact, possess. Please take necessary action to correct this apparent oversight. I look forward to your response.

    Sincerely yours,

    <signed>

    Rather than citing city code, tell them they are citing the wrong F.S. Cite 790.06 rather than 790.52
    Last edited by jbs; April 28th, 2010 at 07:51 PM. Reason: to resolve city code cite
    If I need to oil a gun, I go to the beach.
    8040 Couger, P95
    1929 MN 91/30, 1927/28 MN Ex Dragoon, MN M44's, Lots of MN's
    Swiss LG1911 1915 and 1916
    Brazilian VZ-24 JC (2), Brazilian Model 1908
    Spanish M1916

  14. #29
    jbs
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    If anyone is interested, here is a link to florida concealed carry and their fight with individual cities and counties to follow the state law.

    City Park Carry - Florida Concealed Carry Forums
    If I need to oil a gun, I go to the beach.
    8040 Couger, P95
    1929 MN 91/30, 1927/28 MN Ex Dragoon, MN M44's, Lots of MN's
    Swiss LG1911 1915 and 1916
    Brazilian VZ-24 JC (2), Brazilian Model 1908
    Spanish M1916

  15. #30
    Member Array hipthunder's Avatar
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    re

    its more widespread than people think ........
    "Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."

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