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This is a discussion on Where do you stand on restaurant/bar carry? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I got it....
I got it.
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Originally Posted by unloved
If you're referring to jcabin, he never said any such thing.from the few statements above and the fact he voted "drink as much as you want, it's your choice" I believe you can derive Jcabin's general take on rights VS responsibility
There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
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It's been perfectly legal to consume alcohol while armed in PA for at least twenty years. There is no legal limit on BAC while armed. It's legal to carry into any establishment that sells, and/or serves, alcohol. Yet nothing has knocked the good standing we've tried so hard to achieve.
Who said anything about being wasted? I certainly didn't.Just imagine that you are leaving the bar wasted and you are carrying a weapon.
Carrying under the influence is not a crime here. I don't get drunk in public. However, if I did, and came in contact with the police, having committed no crime, I would expect to be left the hell alone.You come in contact with the police for whatever reason, they find you are carrying and are under the influence. Should you be treated as a responsible citizen who took the time to get a permit to carry legally showing responsibility in exercising your constitutional right, or be treated as just another drunk guy with a gun?
You don't know a single thing about what I think. Though many people don't seem to realize, it is possible to drink responsibly.Your marksmanship on the range can drop from 1/3 to 1/2 in a real life situation now add alcohol on top of that which has its own effects and you think that you can still do all the above things while you are wasted.
I find it interesting that there are always a couple of posters in these threads that make a leap from "drinking" to being "drunk", or "wasted".
Those who CC should never drink. Alcohol affects your perception of your environment and responses. Imagine presenting or firing a weapon in any defensive situation, you would be under the legal microscope for those actions! Just think of adding alcohol consumption to this equation! It's a lose lose situation.
Why not in Elementary, Middle, Jr. High or High Schools? I carry in my childrens schools all the time, why should I not be allowed to?
As to your other comment, I would recommend that you change your mindset and keep your safety more of a priority. No one else should be relied on to keep YOU safe. That is YOUR responsibility.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Thomas Jefferson
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While it is legal to consume alcohol and carry in PA I have a hard time believing there has never been an instance where alcohol came in as a factor in any court cases in PA.
Drunk, wasted, smashed, intoxicated they all mean the same thing... I believe he was speaking about a scenario; Not pointed at anyone specifically.
Sounds good on paper however since you don't get drunk in public it would be hard to have a police encounter wouldn't it? At the very least if someone did try to stagger home the police would most likely charge them with something if not possession.
I agree, it is also possible to carry responsibly, drive responsibly and act responsibly.
I do think that a few drinks does not make one "wasted" it does make them impaired. Several more makes them intoxicated (drunk, smashed, **** faced, lit, hammered, etc.). Consuming several drinks in one hour can have a different level of intoxication from individual to individual and even have more of an effect on people who don't drink as much as others.
There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
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I think far to many people are making a jump from "a drink or two" which is how I voted FWIW, to being completely hammered. I dont drink often, because of my work. however I see no problem with a drink or 2, armed or otherwise.
If it isn't apparent, I voted for carrying and drinking with no limits.Don't tell me consuming alcohol would increase the chance I would over estimate my abilities and could end up dead as a result of that. Firstly, because it won't happenJcabin has made his point clear he feels it is his right to carry and get drunk if he wants to. Fine if he is not violating Penn law then great. Is it a sound tactical decision no but hey it is everyones choice unless it violates the law.Drunk people should not give up the right to defend themselves
Yes it is the whole point of these posts IT IS POSSIBLE TO CARRY AND DRINK RESPONSIBILY I did not make the jump from drinking to drunk others did and as stated that is their decision.
Unloved if you dont get drunk in public great never said or implied that you did. Laws vary from state to state. In my state you would be arrested, your permit and weapon taken plain and simple. There is not one set of rules or laws that govern all states. If you are not violating the laws in your state by drinking and carrying great more power to you. According to my state law and my opinion it is illegal and lacks common sense. The apparent baseline/source for reference on here is Handgunlaws.org or whatever it is called. They say dont drink at all while carrying but that is their opinion you can agree with it or not your choice.
My god guys you want to see what I am talking about with stupid stuff this is the things the anti gunners will use and dwell on not the hundred of thousands of legal CCW holders who go about their business everyday. All it would take is one incident to change the course of state laws and give the anti gunners the ammunition needed to take it all away. I know the first thing that will be said he is not even a CCW holder, it makes no difference all they would see and captilize on is DRUNK, GUN, BROKE INTO BANK, DRUNK, GUN and so on.
Rip Torn: actor, Hollywood hell-raiser... and bank robber?
Veteran star found with loaded gun in bank after mistaking it for his house
By Guy Adams in Los Angeles
Monday, 1 February 2010
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Rip Torn, who once hit Norman Mailer with a hammer while filming
Asked to explain how he could walk un-noticed around his native Connecticut, despite a hugely successful career that has spanned half a century and featured his distinctively craggy face in some of Hollywood's most famous blockbusters, Rip Torn once declared that "the greatest actors can disappear", boasting to an interviewer that friends call him "the Blend-In Man" on account of his ability to keep a low profile.
They'll have to think up a new nickname now. In the early hours of Saturday morning, the 79-year-old Emmy-winning actor was arrested and taken into custody for doing the very opposite of blending in. Police in the small commuter town of Salisbury, where Mr Torn now lives, discovered him armed and extremely drunk, having apparently decided to break into a local bank.
The veteran star, whose best-known recent film role came playing Will Smith's boss Agent Zed in the Men in Black trilogy, has been in custody ever since, and is scheduled to appear in Bantam superior court this morning facing five serious criminal charges, including burglary and possession of a firearm without a permit.
Police documents detailing his bizarre arrest reveal that officers sent to investigate an alarm going off at a local branch of the Litchfield Bank in the middle of the night encountered evidence of a break-in. When they searched the building, the police "confronted a white male within the premises, who was later identified as Elmore 'Rip' Torn".
Explaining why their suspect had been immediately taken to the local police station and held on the relatively steep bail of $100,000 [£62,500], Trooper James Parker's arrest summary adds: "It was then discovered that this individual was armed with a loaded revolver and highly intoxicated."
A spokesman for Torn has yet to comment on the incident, and the police report doesn't say whether prosecutors believe Torn, whose recent TV roles include recurring parts on two of America's most successful original sitcoms, 30 Rock and The Larry Sanders Show, actually intended to rob the bank. However, in an interview with the Los Angeles show business website TMZ, the chief executive of Litchfield Bancorp, Mark Macomber, said that the circumstances of the arrest suggested the star probably didn't intend to hurt anyone or steal money from the business.
Instead, the well-refreshed Dodgeball actor seems to have mistakenly thought the bank was his own home. After his key failed to open the front door, Torn seems to have broken in through a rear window and promptly passed out. To quote the title of another one of his most famous films, it wasn't so much a case of The Man Who Fell to Earth as the drunk who fell asleep.
If nothing else, that interpretation of the crime would at least seem true to form for Torn, who was brought up in Texas, achieved fame in the 1960s, and has over the years enjoyed a reputation as one of the most accomplished Hollywood hell-raisers of his generation, with a prodigious appetite for alcohol and a temper to match.
In 1970, on the set of Maidstone, he famously attacked director and co-star Norman Mailer with a hammer, after apparently growing unhappy with criticisms being made of his interpretation of a key scene. Mailer retaliated by biting his ear, and drawing blood.
Their fight, which took place during filming of a scripted scene (Torn was playing Mailer's assassin), was eventually broken up by crew members, and parts of it were eventually included in the finished film. You can even hear Mailer's wife and children screaming in the background.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. (WETSU)
As stated before:
The title was" Where do you stand on restaurant/bar carry?" asking for an opinion on the question in the OP, "Should CCL holders be allowed in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol, and if so can they drink? If so, how much is too much? If at all."
I respect everyone's decision on drinking -- total-tea-totaling, not while carrying, or what ever.
I have no desire to force you to drink -- at all, while carrying, or what ever.
I do have a problem with other folk assuming that they (collectively as the State, or in what ever role they assume the authority) should decide for me or others what we will be allowed to do.
Prior-restraints on everyone because someone might....
Post violation punishment for real harm....
It's the old maximum that "A citizen's right to swing his arm/fist end at someone else's nose."
Or in the vernacular of sports, "No harm, no foul."
Μολὼν λαβέ
I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.
I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.
Veni, Vidi, Velcro
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Guess I wouldn't have to worry about those mean drunk people in OhioAs stated before:
The title was" Where do you stand on restaurant/bar carry?" asking for an opinion on the question in the OP, "Should CCL holders be allowed in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol, and if so can they drink? If so, how much is too much? If at all."
I respect everyone's decision on drinking -- total-tea-totaling, not while carrying, or what ever.
I have no desire to force you to drink -- at all, while carrying, or what ever.
I do have a problem with other folk assuming that they (collectively as the State, or in what ever role they assume the authority) should decide for me or others what we will be allowed to do.
Prior-restraints on everyone because someone might....
Post violation punishment for real harm....
It's the old maximum that "A citizen's right to swing his arm/fist end at someone else's nose."
Or in the vernacular of sports, "No harm, no foul."
Notice "intoxicated" = "under the influence"?
Notice the date? Not a new law.
When Ohio makes a law they don't tippy toe around guns... its pretty blunt and dry.
While I think it is dumb to not allow legal CCW in restaurants and bars that serve alcohol; I do think it isn't very responsible to drink while carrying.
OMO, YMMW, Disclaimer, no flames, keep your hands to yourself, chill out...
There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Array
boooze used in combination with guns = bad,
booze and guns in the same room = no problem ( it isn't the product it is the consumer that causes them to go off)
allow carry everywhere, if you must drink do it at home.
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I've followed this thread with interest and am not going to interject any opinons. One poster ,however, made a statement about our founding fathers not setting forth any mandates concerning this subject. I think it would be of interest to any of you history buffs to know that almost all drank. When I say all, that includes men, women and children. All day, every day.
They all drank beer from past infancy instead of water. Water was considered unfit for consumption and likely to cause illness or death. This thinking was brought to the colonies from Europe where most water was definitely unfit for drinking. Most homes had a brew room. I'm not sure as to the alcohol content, but from some of the old recipes, some of it was pretty stout (no pun intended).
For those that like to peruse this sort of topic, beerhistory.com has some interesting reading.
"I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away - Thomas Jefferson
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I really hate that I can't carry while going to eat at Applebee's type restaurants. However, for me personally, if I have even one drink I don't drive and the same would hold for going armed.
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No.
No.
No.
But if I want to drink alcohol, I refuse to be disarmed and become a victim. If you can't comprehend this, then you need to. My life is not any less valuable because I am consuming alcohol, whether I've had 4 or 5 beers and have a buzz or took 15 shots and drank a 12 pack and am wasted. My right to self defense does not go away because of alcohol.
I'm tired of hearing guns and alcohol don't mix. It's called being responsible, and not a single one of you have responded to my question, but have continued to cite myth after myth about not being able to handle a gun, or claiming "it's just unwise because the DA will prosecute you or you will get sued". My gun does not leave my holster in public unless I have to use it to defend my life. No amount of alcohol is going to change that. If you are scared of other people being armed and consuming alcohol, fine, just be a man and admit it. If you know you are incapable of carrying a gun and consuming alcohol, because you know you are likely to do something foolish, be a man and admit that. But don't tell me that drinking alcohol and carrying a gun is responsible, because you subscribe to one of the two catagories I described.
Now, if anyone would like to stop making excuses and answer my question:
Does your life become any less valuable, to the point where you should not be allowed to carry a firearm for self defense, simply because you have been consuming alcohol?
As OKShooter previously stated in the thread, consumption and carry is legal here in Pennsylvania, yet we do not have any of the problems so many of you advocates of prohibition(carry/consumption) describe.
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Agreed!
Kholster/Glock 17/Rugar SR9c/Bersa 380CC/Ruger LCR/SW 624/ SW 629
Doublestar Star 15 M4 5.56 / Mossberg 500 Tactical Persuader
I don't even call it violence when it's in self defense; I call it intelligence
Malcolm X
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