May 14th, 2010 06:50 AM
The CCW dialogue now and 20 years ago
My first gun forums were those provided by the CNN and NYT, and they were popular. It was an eye-opener to have a candid dialogue with law-abiding gun-owners from all around the United States, with an occasional foreigner wanting to bash Americans.
As far as I recall, the discussion was always civilized and very enlightening. Mr. Gore's new invention, the Internet sure provided an interesting phenomenon.
It was also the point in time when Florida opened the floodgates and the Shall Issue started to spread. Moreover, FOX new was launched and occasionally the population was provided with real facts regarding firearms. We lived in interesting times.
More important, it was us gun owners against the antis – always.
Some of the members were very knowledgeable about the Constitution; others knew everything there was to be known about firearms. I was there to educate myself and fight the gun banners. It was a heaven for all gun owners to learn and find solace in the fact that you were not alone – there we at least ~60,000,000 others out there. (The numbers were rather obscure at that time.)
Both the CNN and the NYT tried their best to censor and monitor the dialogue, and both, for example, finally banned the use of statistics (FBI, BJS, etc.) that of proved that gun-related harmful effects weren’t that bad after all.
For example, the late 80s, early 90s murder rate was due to crack war, while the general gun-related murder rate had stayed the same for years. In fact, remove the crack effect and we’re better off than France that strictly controls all handguns.
Naturally, both forums had their fervent pro-gun-ban residents who were allowed to spew the most vile ridicule and defamation of law-abiding gun folks without any restrictions, not to mention twist the facts. Also, at that time the antis did not attempt to hide their agenda: NATIONAL COALITION TO BAN HANDGUNS.
Those of you who were old enough, I’m certain, recall the pro-ban persons and their asinine arguments - "Mike Rose" being one of the most notorious and obnoxious.
It’s hard to find a real anti-gun person on any forum nowadays. Today we gun owners challenge each others, and at times I find it very disconcerting.
I love a good dialogue and debate – that is the only way to discover and progress; please don’t get the wrong impression. More important, I do not suggest this forum of ours is somehow at fault; gun forums in general have changed. In fact, I chose to participate and contribute here for obvious reasons.
Just my 2 cents at 5 am.
May 14th, 2010 08:41 AM
Interesting perspective, thanks for the post.
"Today we gun owners challenge each others, and at times I find it very disconcerting."
Could you tell me more about this?
May 14th, 2010 10:18 AM
I understand your concern, however I feel that this is one of the forums out there that remains very civil. I have been on other sites where the attitude more aggressive and rarely visit those lately.
Originally Posted by MN2Go
I'm thankful to the owner(s) and moderators of this site for all their hard work keeping this a friendly place to research my questions. I only wish that I was more knowledgeable and able to contribute more often.
There is one other gun forum that I really enjoy, but it is a pay site and I know that's not for everyone.
Again, thanks to those who continue to make this such a wonderful forum!
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
nor the arrow for its swiftness,
nor the warrior for his glory.
I love only that which they defend.
May 14th, 2010 10:33 AM
I joined with the pro-gun side in the early 90's. I used to battle the anti-gunners on Usenet on talk.politics.guns. Back then the anti's were quite active, always spewing their made up stats and highly charged emotions at everyone. BTW you can still go there, go to groups.google.com and you can access all the Usenet groups, but the one I was talking about seems to have degenerated to a lot of spam and other ilk.
It was fun doing battle with the anti's then, exposing their ridiculous arguments and their strawmen. Of course, they never admitted defeat, always had their hands on their ears -- "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up".
Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.
May 14th, 2010 01:31 PM
I concur, that is why like it here.
Originally Posted by Mean Dean
May 14th, 2010 01:32 PM
Those were the days
Originally Posted by Freedom Doc
May 14th, 2010 01:43 PM
You're welcome. I think the two previous posts more or less explain what I meant.
Originally Posted by cinsc
Also, I'm pretty sure that I'm not allowed to 'bash' any other site on this great forum of ours (I'd like to think I belong here).
Suffice it say that in some forums you'll be the target of an attack regardless of your opinion pro or anti in anything. It's very hard to attempt to exchange ideas in that kind of environment.
I regularly follow several state sites, because there is so much going on -- things happen 24/7 -- and the gentlemen are very well organized. Always very interesting reading. However, certain members drive people away with their relentless and totally unnecessary personal attacks.
I don't recall anything like that taking place twenty years ago. Things change.
Luckily this forum is different.
May 14th, 2010 01:52 PM
"...you'll be the target of an attack regardless of your opinion pro or anti in anything."
Sounds like some family reunions I've been to.
Here things are different, I agree. I was at a political event several weeks ago. It was a dinner, and it was wonderful to sit and eat with a room full of folks I had never met but who were all so like-minded.
As a good friend of mine likes to say: It's a hostile world, we've got to stick together!
May 14th, 2010 10:31 PM
I've found gun owners to be a great bunch of people, very courteous and helpful in general. Given the fact that we're a very diverse group of Americans (with an occasional newcomer in the mix) - age, profession, mileage, etc. - it's even more extraordinary phenomenon that we get along so well.
Originally Posted by cinsc
I hardly ever visit public ranges anymore, but I've noticed that a lot of young ladies come shooting alone or with a girlfriend.
Now, in my neck of the woods purchasing a firearm is at times a painful experience due to the unbelievable attitude of the gun store staff. I can only imagine what it takes for a twenty-one-year old female lacking any knowledge about guns to enter a store in attempt to buy a gun that fits her needs the best.
I guess the young ladies are a different, more assertive breed today. It warms my heart to see them at the range, and my wife and I always do our best to assist them in any way.
Last time we made two youngsters happy by letting them shoot AKs and 12 gauges the first time.
Yes, Sir, we'd stick together. Why don't we?
I'm glad that the Defensive Carry provides an excellent experience.
May 16th, 2010 08:10 AM
I am a range safety officer at my local IDPA, and assist with the "New Shooter" class/meeting prior to each match. At the end of the meeting I had a couple of petite upper middle aged ladies (50+) come up to me and were concerned about their lack of experience, having their only shooting experience being the 8 hour class they attended the prior week. Both were shooting revolvers (38spl). They did not think they were ready for such "advanced" shooting, and were even more concerned about not being fast enough and holding up the rest of the shooters.
Originally Posted by MN2Go
"First off, do not worry about the other shooters. They are here for the same reason you are, get some trigger time in.
Second, safety first, last and always. If that means you have to take slow aimed shots and move around the stages slowly, then that is what you do. There is not one person on this range that is going to get cranky cause you are being cautious. If they do, they are likely to get lectured or booted from the match.
Third, absolutely do not worry about your time. We want you to be safe and have fun.
Give me your registration sheets and I will make sure you are on the same squad as me, and I will help you through the stages and coach you along."
Yeah their times were long, but they did a surprisingly good job for new shooters with revolvers (faster than me on reloads, but I no likey wheel guns). They were also the only ones (new shooters) that did not get chastised for muzzle (keep it down range) and trigger finger.
Also broke them of ever wanting to go back to a range where it is "lane shooting" and single targets.
Yup. Good people here, and at the range.
Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
See also Sheep
May 16th, 2010 09:24 AM
Very accurate description of the RKBA dialog -- pre-proliferation of the internet web sites vs. post.
For what it is worth, your observation applies to all subjects -- not just RKBA.
When the internet began to grow, there was a lot written in the press and in scholarly papers of how it would increase diversity, increase sharing of ideas, open dialog across conflicting points of view, aid in seeking common ground, etc.
I didn't buy it. Not then. Not now.
I observed, from the beginning, that it was a tool for like minded folk to find each other and talk to each other -- no matter what the subject. As they found and talked to like-minded folk they would reduce or or stop talking to those with different ideas -- hence I suggested that the internet would be a polarizing effect.
It is good that we find other like minded folk. Feeling left out is not good. Having no opportunity to learn from others is no good. We grow in the exchange with like-minded brothers and sisters,
BUT we need to go beyond that to be effective in the struggle for RKBA.
The antis are also finding like-minded learning and growing via the internet.
The increase sharing of ideas, the open dialog across conflicting points of view, etc must be developed in the political arena. Join and be active in your local grassroots RKBA organization, or if there isn't an effective local grassroots RKBA organization start one, or at a minimum sign up for the National Rifle Association, Institute for Legislative Action grassroots volunteers program. Turn out for and speak up at meeting & hearings at all level of government. Seek out pro-RKBA elected officials and work to get him/her elected/reelected THEN help write Pro-RKBA bills, and testify at hearings.
The increase sharing of ideas, the open dialog across conflicting points of view, etc must be pursued in the mainstream media. Keep a steady stream of LTE. Monitor and comment on the local TV station's and newspaper's blog, write Op Ed items and submit them.
It is great to share with the like-minded but it is more important to create and maintain dialog across the lines.
Let's challenge each other this year, -- how many LTE or Op Ed did we as a group get published is year? How many timed did we speak at a governmental planing meeting or hearing? How many TV station's and newspaper's blog entries did we post?
I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.
I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.
Veni, Vidi, Velcro
May 16th, 2010 10:11 AM
I found this forum while researching my joining the 21st century and purchasing my first semi-auto pistol. I was an old military and LEO from the revolver days! I liked what I saw and joined. Since then this group has become like a part of my family. All families have disagreements and disputes, but we do agree on most things! I have spoken to several members off line and dealt with several more on purchases. I have enjoyed every contact. I look forward to my time on-line and actually miss it when I'm away for a few days! Stay Safe!
You can educate ignorance, you can't fix stupid
Retired DE Trooper, SA XD40 SC, S&W 2" Airweight
dukalmighty & Pure Kustom Black Ops Pro "Trooper" Holsters, DE CCDW and LEOSA Permits, Vietnam Vet 68-69 Pleiku
May 16th, 2010 11:20 AM
Sir, great story, thank you for sharing.
Originally Posted by Sticks
This is exactly the right approach we need in America.
Thank you for taking the time to convert two ladies forever. It's people like you we need.
May 16th, 2010 11:35 AM
Sir, thank you for the great post and analysis - and the challenge.
Originally Posted by DaveH
I used to be more active regarding the communications department of the RKBA. I'm not going to open the can of worms by telling my extremely negative experiences with the NRA.
Now my activities, outside my profession that focuses in the threat this country is facing, concentrate in self-defense carry and instructing my wife on her journey to learn how to prepare, avoid and survive a violent attack.
I do give free firearms instruction to all willing to learn for free, mostly women and young people.
Your challenge is duly noted. I hope every member of this great site responds positively.
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