What "Shall Issue" state is the most strict? - Page 5

What "Shall Issue" state is the most strict?

This is a discussion on What "Shall Issue" state is the most strict? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by sigmanluke JJVP ; Your comment that no carry in schools is a Federal law, and applies to all states is absolutely incorrect ...

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Thread: What "Shall Issue" state is the most strict?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array JJVP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmanluke View Post
    JJVP;

    Your comment that no carry in schools is a Federal law, and applies to all states is absolutely incorrect. Statements like this confuse others and spread mis-information. Please try to verify info before you pass it along.

    Thanks, Sigmanluke
    Gun Free Zones are Federal law. However, it allows carry only by those with CCW's from the state where the school is located.


    18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts

    (2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
    possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJVP View Post
    Gun Free Zones are Federal law. However, it allows carry only by those with CCW's from the state where the school is located.


    18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts

    (2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
    possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;
    The Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 was struck down by SCOTUS in United States vs Lopez. Also, the law you're quoting above specifically states that it does not apply if you have a permit from the state you're carrying in.

  3. #63
    Member Array 3dfxMM's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=JJVP;1622630]Gun Free Zones are Federal law. However, it allows carry only by those with CCW's from the state where the school is located.

    Exactly. This means that it is state law that prevents Texans with a CHL from carrying in a school building, not federal law.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Array JJVP's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=3dfxMM;1622746]
    Quote Originally Posted by JJVP View Post
    Gun Free Zones are Federal law. However, it allows carry only by those with CCW's from the state where the school is located.

    Exactly. This means that it is state law that prevents Texans with a CHL from carrying in a school building, not federal wlaw.
    Agree. But the federal law prohibits anyone without a permit or with a permit from another state from carrying in a school.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Array JJVP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    The Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 was struck down by SCOTUS in United States vs Lopez. Also, the law you're quoting above specifically states that it does not apply if you have a permit from the state you're carrying in.
    Isn't that what I said?

  6. #66
    Member Array 3dfxMM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJVP View Post

    Agree. But the federal law prohibits anyone without a permit or with a permit from another state from carrying in a school.
    Yes, but the topic at hand is how restrictive state CC laws are.

  7. #67
    Member Array knuts6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will B. Droopy View Post
    Please see Post #39



    Please see Post #29



    Your area is (apparently) not the same in reference to "No Gun" signs as was the Raleigh area in 1996.




    This further explains it, as my NC CCW experiences were in 1996 when the law was spankin' fresh new, as I stated.

    -Bill
    Bottom line is that now its not as bad as 1996, but can always be better.

  8. #68
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJVP View Post
    " TX no concealed carry places 13 total."

    Please list them.
    I gave my source. Since you can't go there yourself and download the PDF:

    •A place of business that derives 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on premises consumption
    •On premises of a correctional facility
    •On the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
    activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private,
    •On the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event of interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event
    •On the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or while early voting is in progress.
    •racetrack; secured area of an airport

    •In any government court or offices utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the court.
    •*on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
    •*On the premises of a Hospital licensed under the Health and Safety Code
    •*On the premises of a nursing home licensed under the Health and Safety Code
    •*Amusement parks. Amusement Parks means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where
    amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
    •Public or private premises conspicuously posted with this sign do

    Several bullet points there, some of which have more than one premise listed.


    So, you can carry into a school and the secure area of an airport?
    Open carry with a CPL, yes in both.

    There is no penalty for printing in TX. You can be arrested for anything, in any state. Being prosecuted and convicted is another story.
    I recall a few years back a couple members on GT were arrested, charged, and convicted of brandishing because their weapon printed.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  9. #69
    Member Array Trumpetchuck's Avatar
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    Michigan has one big loophole....

    If you have a CPL you can OPEN CARRY in Pistol Free Zones.
    "Don't be afraid to see what you see.
    -Ronald Reagan-

  10. #70
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    JJVP:

    I understand what you're saying about the "Federal Gun Free School Zones", however, the WAY you wrote it (in post #56) implied that it is against Fed. law to carry at a school. That is what my statement was regarding.
    Last edited by sigmanluke; May 18th, 2010 at 10:52 AM. Reason: clarity
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
    Thomas Jefferson

  11. #71
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    As has been mentioned there is opinion out there that open carry in these places is allowed with a CPL, but I know of no cases where it has been tested.
    Here is the exact statute that allows it.

    MCL 750.234(d)

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:


    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    Michigan Legislature - Section 750.234d

    As I said before, the state police, the state AG's office, and the state supreme court have backed this up. There was a guy that OC'd in a hospital with a CPL. He was told it was illegal. He went up in front of the county gun board, the DA told him he was wrong and the board voted to suspend the CPL until a court could look it over. He was arrested on charges of carrying a firearm in violation of that above statute. Well, long story short, a letter from the three entities above told the prosecutor he was a nimrod and ordered said nimrod to return the CPL to the citizen as the citizen was 100% in line with the law and that the prosecutor was completely out of line. Think it was out of Macomb County. Why is it legal? Because of that exception I bolded below. Plain english allows it and it's in the statute.

    Notice also it says 'a firearm', not 'a pistol'. If you have a CPL you can openly carry any firearm into any said establishment and it's 100% legal.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  12. #72
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Here is the no concealed carry premises statute. Notice it only applies to concealed pistols. Two elements for this statute to apply: 1) it must be a pistol as defined by state statute and 2) it must be concealed from ordinary view. If one of those conditions does not exist, this statute doesn't apply.

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

    (4) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) An individual licensed under this act who is a retired police officer or retired law enforcement officer. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a letter from the law enforcement agency stating that the retired police officer or law enforcement officer retired in good standing.

    (b) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is employed or contracted by an entity described under subsection (1) to provide security services and is required by his or her employer or the terms of a contract to carry a concealed firearm on the premises of the employing or contracting entity.

    (c) An individual who is licensed as a private investigator or private detective under the professional investigator licensure act, 1965 PA 285, MCL 338.821 to 338.851.

    (d) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a corrections officer of a county sheriff's department.

    (e) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a motor carrier officer or capitol security officer of the department of state police.

    (f) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a member of a sheriff's posse.

    (g) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is an auxiliary officer or reserve officer of a police or sheriff's department.

    (h) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a parole or probation officer of the department of corrections.

    (i) A state court judge or state court retired judge who is licensed under this act. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a state court retired judge to obtain and carry a letter from the judicial tenure commission stating that the state court retired judge is in good standing as authorized under section 30 of article VI of the state constitution of 1963, and rules promulgated under that section, in order to qualify under this subdivision.

    (5) An individual who violates this section is responsible for a state civil infraction or guilty of a crime as follows:

    (a) Except as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $500.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol suspended for 6 months.

    (b) For a second violation, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $1,000.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.

    (c) For a third or subsequent violation, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.
    In short, if the pistol is concealed the above statute applies. If it's any firearm and it's NOT concealed, then this statute DOES NOT apply and MCL 750.234(d) THEN APPLIES.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  13. #73
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    The AG's office, state police legal liaison, and the state supreme court have all opined that having a CPL while openly carrying allows one to open carry a pistol in all of MI's "pistol free zones" so long as it remains open and not concealed. This is exactly in concurrent with current MI statutes.

    I'm on lunch break right now but I get home about midnight and will copy/paste the relevant statues when I get back. Later.
    I copied this from the MSP Legal update newsletter (highlighting added by me:
    **************************************************
    Concealed Pistol License pistol free zones
    MCL 28.425o was amended to extend CPL pistol free zone exemptions to the following while off-duty: county corrections officers; MDOC parole or probation officers; all reserve officers or sheriff’s posse members; and MSP motor carrier officers and capitol security officers.
    Before the amendment, those persons were only exempt from pistol free zones while on-duty. These exemptions continue to apply only to those persons having a CPL.

    ************************************************** *
    So the big question here is, does the last sentence refer to OFF DUTY officers that HAVE a CPL, or does it refer to Other CPL holders.

    The way I read it OFF Duty officers in the list that have a CPL can carry in pistol free zones, and I think they can carry concealed.
    The rest of us can not, the way I read this.
    Of course you may have found a different AG opinion, but the one I seem to recall reading also was specifically addressing a licensed private investigator. I eagerly await your post with more information because I would like to be able to stop at my wife's place of work while armed, but she works in a hospital.

  14. #74
    Member Array 3dfxMM's Avatar
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    •*on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
    •*On the premises of a Hospital licensed under the Health and Safety Code
    •*On the premises of a nursing home licensed under the Health and Safety Code
    •*Amusement parks. Amusement Parks means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where
    amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
    All of these are no longer statutorily off-limits. They must give notification compliant with 30.06 just like any other property that wants to prevent CHL holders from carrying there.

    Meetings of government entities are also in that category now.

  15. #75
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    OK so to get this right section 750.234d applies to guns in general, and CPL holders are not restricted, and section 28.425o applies to concealed, so your saying CPL holders can open carry in gun free zones.
    Further, 28.425o section #4 says that off duty LEO, motor carrier officers, sheriff posse, etc can carry concealed in these areas.
    Thats interesting, but I still wouldn't want to have to be cuffed, have my gun confinscated and go to court to prove it all over again. Until I see open carry more common in these areas I think I'll just go unarmed when I have to.

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