This is a discussion on My experience Saturday with the NRA class (long) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am a NRA TC level Instructor ( cert. to train NRA INST.s) Just some thoughts. From what I read in the above posts, the ...
I am a NRA TC level Instructor ( cert. to train NRA INST.s)
Just some thoughts.
From what I read in the above posts, the Class being discussed is the "PISTOL - BASIC" NOTE the term BASIC. This course is "Generic" in nature & is designed to INTRODUCE the individual to Pistols. ( SAFETY, Handling, Cleaning, storage, etc.) It is NOT a class for CCing, PP etc ( therefore DOES NOT COVER the Law, Psychological ?? etc.) . the "concept" again, is to "introduce"the Individual to shooting the pistol in GENERAL. ( ranging from "plunking", hunting, Target, Compilation,etc. ( The last lesson spends time on what is avail. to the "New shooter" in these areas & ENCOURAGES them to become involved, PLUS encourages them to get further training & Practice.)
NOTE - In my State ( WA ) Does not Require any Training for a CC lic. ( ) But several states do & use the NRA Basic Pistol Course to fulfill this requirement.
The NRA does offer "PERSONAL PROTECTION" Classes - Personal Protection in the Home & Personal Protection Outside the Home. (CCing ) These classes DO HAVE a Section on the Law, etc.
NOTE - This section is NOT Taught by the NRA Instructor, BUT by a QUALIFIED Guest Speaker. ( The NRA is VERY STRICT on this.)
ALSO NOTE - Both these are BASIC Classes & the individuals are "encouraged" to seek further training & PRACTICE.
A PERSONAL side Note -
I have been a "Pistol Instructor" for over 40 years. ( Mil, LEO,private ( including PP, CC, etc)
Perhaps the HARDEST thing I had to come to "grips with" when I started out as a NRA Instructor, was to remember that the classes were BASIC. I wanted to give them MORE. ( esp. in the PP classes ) but that is NOT what the classes are designed for.(any more than the Basic Rifle class is to make the shooter an "over night" sniper)
As I mentioned, I Train NRA Instructors. My "training team" trains instructors ranging from "sporting" gun club staff to LEOs & well known PP Training org.s We STRESS the FACT that the NRA courses are BASIC & that they MUST adjust to that.
This Esp. HARD when training the latter 2 types of groups
As an example, last year we signed a contract with a "nationally known" PP Training org. that wanted to include the NRA Classes in their curriculum. We met with the "Owner & Staff & "briefed" them on the above. It took a while to get them to "understand" but the "candidates" they sent us "knew" the "rules" & adjusted very well. ( BTW, we have sat in as "observers on a couple of their classes ( this a part of being a TC) & they did GREAT.
There should be no requirements to defend yourself with a firearm. NO constitutionally protected rights should even require a permit or license to exercise.
The people who feel that requirements and training should be required are basing their decision generally on emotional and not on the facts. You can't reason with these people because their feelings are in the way of the logical conclusion based on facts. It's like arguing with my wife.
Permit holders are not running around shooting good-guys and blood is not running in the street over fender benders as is always predicted when looser CCL laws are passed.
Speak softly, and carry a big stick.
Well Idaho requires a class and several classes are available. I took the free class offered by the Ada County sheriff's office . It was the best and fastest three hours of my life. I was sad when the class was over. I have said before and will say again. I think EVERY adult should have at least some exposure to this training. Gun owner or not. Specific firearms were not discussed. I bet several folks who took the class elected not to pursure their CCW permits, which is fine. The class was totally common sense and legal aspects. I don't think government should mandate training. People owe themselves and the public to train, practice, learn and respect the weapon and the responsibility. My wife is getting her permit, has little experience with handguns, and we will spend a bunch of time at the range, as well as the kitchen table discussing, safety, responsibilitys, the use of force. We do not take this lightly I hope no one does.
In a gun fight, you can not miss fast enough, to catch up.
These threads just keep re-appearing.
For the record, I'm on the side of "There should be no prior restraints on ANY constitutional Right -- including the RKBA and to defend yourself with a firearm. NO constitutionally protected rights should even require a permit or license or training or proficiency test to exercise."
I do agree that training should be encouraged.
Apply all these pro-permit or license or pro-required-training or pro-required-proficiency test to any other constitutionally protected rights and it becomes clear why they don't fly.
A government-issued permit or license or a government designed-required-training or government designed-required-proficiency-test to exercise religion? Yeah, Right!!
A government-issued permit or license or a government designed-required-training or government designed-required-proficiency test to exercise the right of (free???) speech? Yeah, Right!!
A government-issued permit or license or a government designed-required-training or government designed-required-proficiency test to exercise the right of a (free???) press? Yeah, Right!!
A government-issued permit or license or a government designed-required-training or government designed-required-proficiency test before you can assemble, or petition the Government for a redress of grievances? Yeah, Right!!
SCOTUS has even extended the freedom to act w/o prior restraint to "rights" not enumerated under their reading of 9A.
Yet, folk want prior-restraint of 2A.
Last edited by DaveH; May 18th, 2010 at 07:48 PM. Reason: Fix a rush job on post
I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.
I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.
Veni, Vidi, Velcro
i dont think youll find many who would disagree that the majority of gun owners may be severely undertrained for any type of self defense...but...how far do we take it and how "stringent" should the testing be before it starts infringing on peoples right to keep and bear arms?....
be careful what you wish for...because if the wrong people get involved youll be looking at groups the size of a quarter at 20 yards or no permit....one hell of a gun control measure camoflaged as qualifying requirements to carry a firearm....
I'm with Puffer 100% on _everything_ he'd stated. Everything.
I too am an NRA certified instructor, 'Basic Pistol', and as noted by both Puffer and LENs, this specific course is nothing more than an introductory AND the NRA requires that .22LR be used and nothing greater as related to instruction within that specific level of course.
Again the course is "Basic Pistol". No advanced level pistol use discussion is involved AND it is not oriented specifically toward hunting nor defense. It is simply covering the basics with specificity toward safety and basic fundamentals of firearm operation. That is all.
Like Puffer I too had serious problems getting my mind around this.
Reason being that many states now, including MA, will accept an NRA 'Basic Pistol' cert as being compliant training toward being allowed application for a state issue carry license/permit.
All things being relative it's akin to sending a person through an 'Easy Method' drivers school course for beginner drivers...And upon passing allowing these same people to drive an RV, over the road commercial truck or to compete in an IRL or F1 race.
It's difficult to get ones mind around, if and when you suspend knowledge of the 2A as it is written.
As noted by Puffer the NRA does though offer _advanced_ and specific course work toward carry.
Thing is you are mandated to take the Basic Pistol, Basic Shotgun, Basic Rifle or one of the NRA First Shots programs (pistol/shotgun/rifle) first.
The subsequent advanced courses are though themselves 'Basic':
* NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course
* NRA Basics of Personal Protection Outside The Home Course
* NRA Home Firearm Safety Course
* Refuse To Be A Victim® Seminars
NRA course catalog - NRAInstructors.org - Portal for NRA certified Instructors, NRA Education and Training
The entire suite of NRA courses for civilians are largely introductory and basic.
They explicitly do not allow instructors to offer legal advisorys. That is to be provided only by a LEO or attorney as is retained specifically by the instructor for providing that narrow area of instruction/advice as in addition to the very specific and regimented course detail as provided by the NRA.
Vary from what the NRA allows and you as an instructor are on your own...They will pull your credentials, you will be subject to legal action(this happened in CT this year and has been a huge mess!), and the NRA will walk away from you as related to any sort of legal defense.
An NRA instructor would be _foolish_ to do anything other than what is proscribed in the course curriculum as per the NRA.
So to Opie and others what you experienced and how you felt is not at all surprising.
Just know that what you went through was _basic_ as in a level 101 type of course. It is not designed to make people 'shooters', thus the use of .22LR.
It's primary focus is to instill safety in use and practice as with firearms regardless of the individual students future post course goal...Be it defense, hunting, sporting, to later become a cop, enter into the military or to never ever put hand to a gun in their life again.
P.S. - When I went through the NRA course for VA as toward my specific focus of carrying a gun (VA law then required it) I did by my own choice bring the gun I'd intended to carry. A full size full steel 5" 1911 chambered in .45 ACP.
Most everyone else brought or borrowed .22LRs. I recall my instructor asking why did I bring such a gun and asking if I wanted to borrow a .22 they had available. I refused it stating that if I can't past a very basic test using a 'real' gun (my view then and still my view now) then I have no business carrying on the street and among human beings.
I was prepared to accept the consequence of failure. I passed...And that is the gun indicated as what I'd qualified with as on my NRA certificate, as in a course instructed by and at the NRA Headquarters.
I've been carrying and competing with that specific same gun for over six years now.
At Miami Valley Shooting Grounds, near Vandalia, Ohio, five of us mature men took our $75 mandatory minumum CCW class from two NRA instructors. CCW classes do not qualify one to use a gun for Spec Ops or SWAT or police or CIA or FBI or even to target shoot. Our Ohio CCW class stressed serious civil and legal consequences, liabilities and responsibilities with anecdotal stories, conversations, questions and handbook tests that we had to pass. The final two hours was for close-range CCW competance and target shooting. We did not tell our NRA instructors all about how we used to shoot and what we used to do when we were in the military or police, etc. It was their class and they knew what they were doing. They asked us to come back and practice, after the class, to become better and safer, without a fuss, because it was and is up to us. You see, we were surprised when we soon saw that we were not as young and as good as we used to be...or thought we were.
OH requires at least a twelve hour course. In your post you do not mention the length of you course. From reading your post it did not seem to meet the twelve hour requirement?? I too am a NRA instructor. I am on the WV OH border and teach a class the meets the requirements of both states. My class includes both NRA Basic Pistol and NRA Personal Protection in the Home. The NRA makes three excellent videos available for these courses. I have a law enforcement officer come in to cover the legal aspects of concealed carry and to answer questions as required by the NRA. This session is usually at least an hour long and frequently longer depending on the number of questions asked.
From your post it seems like you did not get an adequate class.
I prefer my students to shoot something larger than a .22. However with the recent high cost of ammunition, I do allow .22s if that is all the student has available. We shoot about 100 rounds.
I wasn't particularly happy with my NRA class either. My instructor(a last minute substitute due to illness) seemed a bit senile. We did not have to fire any weapon at all. That is not required in Va. When it was, bringing a .22 was fine because they weren't looking for accuracy with a carry weapon, but rather to see how you handled and shot a loaded firearm. Honestly, if I hadn't found out later that I was already qualified to carry under the Va law (former military, hunter safety and a full semester shooting and firearms safety course in college) I would have looked for another course. One other thing, during my course, the instructor passed his S&W .38 around for everyone to handle. Myself, my son and his girlfriend were the only ones who verified that the gun was unloaded. Maybe it wasn't necessary for all of us, but that is always my practice even when "I know it isn't loaded". My son was taught the same thing.
Going to a class is definitely an eye opener. There's always a Hicks (Police Academy movie), a Fudd, a desperate housewife, a gang banger look alike, etc. Usually only a couple other people I would want to know are armed when the smelly stuff hits the ventilation. But as has been said, news reports do not bear out our fears of mass self defense shooting incompetence.
Sometimes I do wonder though if the government shouldn't design a very basic, easy to pass familiarlity class that must be passed before a citizen can carry CC or OC. Yes I know it's a right, no other rights get this treatment, blah blah, but no other rights will immediately cause death or serious bodily injury if misused. It is well established that rights have limits.
When I went through the VA Corrections academy way back, during the revolver range event, we were all encouraged to fire slowly and deliberately to get good scores. Um, no. When we went live fire, I put 18 rounds on target while everybody else was still working on their first 6. Awkward feeling standing on line for most of the 90 seconds alloted for everybody else to finish up.
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
1. At the very START of the class, ALL firearms ( modern & Muzzle loaders) MUST BE SHOWN CLEAR. That includes Personal carry ( Including LEOs ) Guns used for display,Demo ( including blue guns etc.), ETC. ( NO LIVE AMMO is allowed in a class room ( except the reloading classes.)
The Gun(s) are (individually held by the individual, shown CLEAR, then He/She, MUST Show the firearm to AT LEAST 3 fellow class members. These class members MUST VERIFIED that the firearm is CLEAR!!
2. ANY TIME A firearm is "handled" consequently, even though it was "shown Clear @ the start of the class, The possess for "showing Clear" MUST BE Repeated.
1. Fake guns, Props that are used as "guns" ( brooms, even your finger, etc ) falls under this Req.)
2. If an individual opts to "retain" his/her firearm on their "person", & leaves the classroom, then upon reentering, MUSTrepeat the "Show Clear"possess.
There is NO LATITUDE in this NRA Reg.
Do NRA instructors lose their Certs for not following the above = YES
Sixto...I like the suggestion of TDI...As I have noted to you before I have a friend in Waynesville, I like to visit who is also a shooter and gun person. I might have my girl take one of the better instructed CCW courses here in my new area taught by some LEO friends of mine, to get her permit then we take TDI together.
Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.
I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.
I am an NRA Certified Instructor who offers Ohio CHL classes throughout the year. From what you described I am quite concerned that both NRA and Ohio Attorney General requirements may have been compromised in your class. My company (NW Ohio CCW) offers the NRA Basic Pistol Course plus an additional 4 hours of instruction, 90 minutes of which is presented by a criminal defense attorney who focuses specifically on the Ohio law. I agree with previous posters that we need more stringent attention to gun handling and legal implications of concealed carry. I have definitely failed students who were deficient in one or both.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I was fortunate to have an excellent training course (Basic Pistol) by certified NRA instructors. We not only covered the basics, we were tought the isosceles shooting stance, two handed & one handed shooting stance(both strong and weak), shooting from behind cover standing and kneeling from the left and right side(two handed and one handed). All shooting was done with my Sig 229 40 cal. at 21ft or less. We also spent close to 4 hours going over state laws and shoot, dont shoot scenerios. This was conducted by a local police chief.
Overall I was extremly statisfied and I will definately be doing some more instructor lead training in the future. IMHO the trainging should never stop. With my choice to carry comes great resposibility on my part to learn and train as much as I can.