My experience Saturday with the NRA class (long)
This is a discussion on My experience Saturday with the NRA class (long) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have to say I disagree with the tone of the OP and many responses. It comes across as a lot of elitism that seems ...
May 19th, 2010 08:51 PM
I have to say I disagree with the tone of the OP and many responses. It comes across as a lot of elitism that seems out of place. I think you all are forgetting what it was like when you were awkward with firearms.
It's not far off from the thread last week or so from a new female forum member who was getting harassed at her local range for trying to learn to shoot, and trying out various models. At least she was out there trying to learn more, right? Makes me want to kick the guys at the range that were giving her a hard time.
I looked around my CFP class and wondered if some people would be more careless than others, or more nuts than others. I wondered why these people even wanted to carry. I also looked around the room and noticed that others were looking at me too. I noticed that we had differing opinions through the class. I noticed that we had varying experience levels. However, I also noticed that we were all there trying to learn more. If half of those people have done half the post-class research & practice that I have then I'm glad to have them carrying also.
Heck, how hard is it to look around these forums and think that some of these guys are gonna get themselves killed for one reason or another.
I think your class experience was on par, and I don't think you have much to worry about. Was it as great as it could be? Probably not, but that's okay too. It's certainly not so bad that you should be considering that they don't have the same right to arm themselves as you do. Don't forget that the CFP classes are not advanced training courses they are certification courses, and any good instructor will encourage additional training and practice.
XD-40sc w/Fed HST
My father taught me to always use the right tool for the job.
A Vespa motor scooter is a motor vehicle, but it's a poor excuse for a family car.
A .22 or a .25 is a firearm, but it's a poor excuse for defense. -- Massad Ayoob
May 19th, 2010 09:39 PM
The classes I took here cover the laws, covered examples of situations of self-defense, and also the responsibility and ramifications of carrying a gun or shooting ... in depth. They also covered what IS NOT self defense, brandishing, concealing, etc.
They covered gun safety quite well.
Then, in the range.... they covered all of the rules of the range, some do's and do not's, and safety again.
I have no issue with anyone who shoots a .22 to qualify. Anyone who can handle a .22 safely, can most likely handle other guns safely. As far as shooting a particular gun type or caliber .... to me that's like saying if you shoot a revolver, you shouldn't use a semi-auto because they are different. If you quality with a .357, are we qualified to shoot a .45 ? Most people 'learn' ... even if it's a different type of gun.
I saw no one handle a gun unsafe, and would trust anyone there. I've seen many LEO's that I have thought mis-handle their guns, who I didn't want to be around, and who have had ND's.
Some women I"ve seen are more nervous and hesitant at first, but I'm glad they see a a need to be proactive. They were all also going to additional classes with instructors on the side ... learning more about guns, shooting, safety, etc.
So, my experience in the classes and qualifying was quite different. Maybe, that's just saying a lot about how some instructors are better than others.
May 19th, 2010 10:30 PM
My experience with the Ohio CCW class was very positive - until we hit the range. Even at the range the instructor was very professional, but we had one participant that none of the rest of us felt safe around - more on him later.*
The Ohio class is 12 hours and our instructor covered:
- basic gun handling,*
- Ohio's law,*
- a discussion on various scenarios that you could encounter and what the legal ramifications of certain actions could be (not legal advice but thought provoking nonetheless),*
- basic home defense strategies and things to think about like fields of fire and how the kiddos should react if TSHTF and their rooms are on the other side of the stairs from yours
- holster options
- concealment strategies
- gun terminology
- proper sight picture
- I am sure there are other things I am forgetting
The instructor also had an assortment of guns we could see and touch. This helped some of the women to see if they could rack the slide of a broken in auto - some were easier than others. * Overall, the classroom part was first rate.*
Interestingly, at the start of day 1, the instructor had us evaluate our anticipated performance on a 1-10 scale. There were 8 of us in the class and the trend turned out that those with more experience rated themselves lower than those with less experience. We also had to state what gun we would shoot on the range. While 22s were allowed nobody brought one. We had 1 .38; several 9mms; a couple of .40s and my new g21. *Althouge I could have brought other guns, I figured as we would be putting at least 100 rounds through the gun I should take the opportunity to break it in. *I ended up putting 200 rounds through it without a hiccup.*
When we hit the range we shot a variety of exercises. The instructor taught both the Weaver and isoceles (sp?) stances, we shot 1 handed with both hands, we shot from behind cover on both the right and left, we shot from the hip to simulate a quick shot from a just-drawn gun and, with unloaded guns, we learned to rack the slide one handed by hooking the rear sights on your belt - not a preferred method, but it could be a life saver.*
The problem with the range was the guy with the .38. He had a 4" barrel S&W that could be fired SA or DA. The instructor required that he learn to shoot it DA, but this guy refused. He also had a tremor that precluded him from keeping the gun pointed downrange in his lane. *He hit targets 2 lanes to either side at 7 yards. To the instructor's credit, he did quickly require that this guy be off the line when the rest of is were shooting, but then we all had to stand back when the other guy shot. This wasted good range time.*
One good exercise we did at the end of the range time was to shoot at 5 stickers on a man target, one at each left and right hip, one on each shoulder and one on the head. We then had to dump 5 shots in 3 seconds with one aimed at each sticker. This was not to suggest that these are prime aim points, but rather to show how hard it is to hit a moving target.*
Overall the class was great and while I am not advocating removing someone rights, the guys with the .38 could not be disuaded from his plan to carry. In fact, he proudly announced to all in the class that he had been carrying concealed for years even though he knew it was against the law.
In the end, 7 presumably law abiding citizens passed the course with one self-admitted criminal who could not hit the broad side of a barn if he was standing in the middle of it. I know the instructor felt his hands were tied, but I don't think he should have passed the guy after he admitted that he consistently and knowingly breaks the law. * *
I agree with those who have posted that training should not be required however, having Mr. .38 on the street packing, legally or not, is sobering. I also find it interesting that while the second amendment clearly states the RKBA shall not be infringed, the government statutorily infringes on this right with impunity. This is most troubling as the founding fathers are clearly on record as stating the 2A is partly to keep government from becoming tyranical.*
Sorry for going on so long. Stepping off my soapbox now. * * *
May 20th, 2010 12:10 AM
By taking and passing these CCW classes, we are in fact and in effect registering ourselves; agreeing to be fingerprinted, photographed and background checked, all entered and recorded, saved, stored and shared inside computers and on hard-drives and CDs. We have also taken and passed CCW tests, in effect stating that we understand and willingly accept and agree to the basic serious legal and civil requirements, restrictions and responsibilites; not that ignorance of the law is an excuse to break, ignore or violate it. We have registered ourselves...whether we can shoot or not. Oh, later, while shooting my Kel-Tec P-11 at and inside the Vandalia Armory, the indoor-range officer gave me free advice and tips, back to the basics, without any offense intended or taken, despite my old-cop/soldier/shooter/cab-driver pride; and I did not tell him all about how I used to shoot and what I used to do, because he knew what we were doing and how and why I was shooting the way I was.
May 20th, 2010 01:58 AM
Jwhite, yes was being sarcastic. I am a big supporter if you are going to carry a firearm for self defense know what you are doing. Many times the basic training required is minimal to say the least and the students are "rubber stamped" because it has become a business and money making enterprise for some instead of a teaching opprotunity.
I totally agree with the comment made about LEO's mishandling their firearms, some can be the worlds worst. Just because you drive a taxi does not make you a good driver and just because you wear a badge does not mean you are a gun nut. Many carry a gun because they have to not because they want to. They may fire that weapon twice a year on the range and not unholster it until the next range day and they need their ass kicked for it.
We were all ackward with firearms at one time some of us were 8 and some 38 and that is understandable but what I question are those who carry a gun for self defense and have been carrying for self defense for a long time and are still ackward with a firearm because they dont train.
I just purchased a handgun from a gentleman who carried it for a year and a half, daily for long periods of time. The gun showed holster wear but when asked about reliability and accuracy he did not know because he had never fired it! NOT ONCE.
Is this the norm, god I hope not but it is up to us to make sure it does not become the norm.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
May 20th, 2010 02:50 AM
I would have to agree. It can be interesting sometimes. I have only done one CCW class. Not a regular thing
Originally Posted by SIXTO
Craig S. Flaherty
Suarez International Staff Instructor
May 20th, 2010 03:15 AM
No class should be needed. People, I would hope, would voluntarily take them, but they should never be mandated.
May 20th, 2010 07:57 PM
It may be a man thing, browsing and buying, collecting and displaying, new tools that we rarely, if ever, get around to using...like paint brushes.
May 20th, 2010 08:08 PM
PA member here.
No test , no qual. shoot. , no restriction on what gun
you can carry- way it should be - IT's A RIGHT !
I do favor safety instruction for newbies but it should NOT
be a Pass/Fail course.
-SIG , it's What's for Dinner-
know your rights!
"If I walk in the woods, I feel much more comfortable carrying a gun. What if you meet a bear in the woods that's going to attack you? You shoot it."
May 20th, 2010 08:09 PM
Like most things.... 20% on one side will not do much more than get the license. 20% will go way over board on the other end. And , the middle 60 % will do it right, get training, know the laws, etc.
I would bet the quality of instructors, probably follows about the same percentages.
May 21st, 2010 02:46 AM
I haven't been to an NRA class but I recently took my TX CHL class from a certified NRA Qulified instructor. In Texas the class is a minimum of ten hours. The instructor was very anti-macho which I really liked! He let us know the criminal and civil risk when drawing a weapon on someone. He spend a good amount of time on non-violent disput resolution, defensive ammo, holsters, and more on law. He was very down to earth and realistic. He clearly said your not a LEO so don't think of your chl as a lisence to police society! Unlike other instructors I looked into he keeps his classes small (12 max) some classes that my friends took had 45 people in it and it felt like a diplomia mill according to them. It is scarry thinking that there are people out there with a chl who
walk around with a chip on there shoulder. It's not about being to
tuff guy it's about surviving.
Beretta/Stoeger Cougar 8000f -blued, 9mm
Kel-Tec PF9- 9mm, hard chrome
Ruger LCP with CT
May 21st, 2010 08:11 PM
It is good and normal and natural when gun people enjoy learning stuff; that is until they know enough or cannot learn anymore, after they get smarter than NRA instructors or other gun sisters or brothers. I often just walk up to look and to listen, people not minding at all, while we talk about guns and shooting, either inside gun stores or at a range, not really strange. Then, there are these Internut forums and gun magazines and books to read and study with your gun buddies.
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