Defensive Carry banner

Would you try to do something?

6K views 101 replies 40 participants last post by  twocan 
#1 ·
#2 ·
3 on 1 is poor odds. I might make the trip to the cooler if everything is going smoothly. Stay ready in case anything goes "wrong" (relatively), but placing 6 shots before they place one is gonna be quite a feat under stress. If my lunch buddy had an extra heater, might even the odds up a bit.
 
#7 ·
This is a perfect example of why it is a good idea to carry a reserve ammo magazine, especially for those of us who carry a 1911.
Six rounds is 75% of capacity on an eight round stick and 60% for a ten rounder.

Anyone on the street carrying less than eight rounds is woefully inadequate.
I don't believe a lot of people think of things in this way, and do the math.

As to firing six shots, that might not be how I would make the play.
One shot to the first man to stun if not put hm down...Reposition myself as relative to him (assume he's still alive and threat capable!) while also looking for T2 and T3.
Fire once or maybe twice into T2 if he's spotted alone. If not then it's T2 and T3 for one and then a follow up on to either for additional rounds as necessary.

And that is assuming and hoping I don't miss/drop a shot!

All the while I continue to employ the Casius Clay technique; 'Stick & Move'...And try to keep track of known GGs (customers and employees) among my background as well as my 4, 6, and 8.

A ton of work and very high stress with great personal risk.
Or, one could play the other side of the coin and be led into a room with no exit.

Terrible choices either way but circumstance requires that a choice be made, and by that you are stuck with it. : |

- Janq
 
#27 ·
They're awesome odds if you're a US military member and the bad guys are hajis.

But...in most situations, unless the 3 guys act like they're going to start executing people, I think it's better off to comply.

However, when backed against a wall, sometimes fight and sometimes flight kicks in. Most people tuck tail and run...then some people, the fewer number...fight.
 
#4 ·
I believe that you would need to be calm and go with the flow, until they want to move you to the back. 9 time out of 10 that is where the "bad" things are going to happen. Don't let them move you! I always tell my wife that a BG is not taking you somewhere so that they can be more polite. They are taking you there so they have more control and less odds of detection.....exactly what you dont want.

If you have to fight be swift, viscous and have no mercy
 
#5 · (Edited)
↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ :hand10: ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑

↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ :yup: ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ :yup: ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ :yup: ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ :yup: ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ :yup: ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑

Absolutely!

I'll take 1:3 (defending self) vs. 1:10 (what typically happens after herding).
 
#6 ·
Stictly a judgement call that is best made at the moment based on a number of things. This one turned out relatively ok. Some have not.

Of note in the first few seconds of the video was the two run-ins, then the sneaky flanker.
 
#8 · (Edited)
A few years back in Florida, this same scenario happened in a fast food joint only there were two BG's and not three. One of the customers was a 71 year-old former Marine helicopter pilot from Vietnam enjoying a peaceful meal. When ordered to the cooler, he shot both suspects with his 1911.

When interviewed, he said something to the affect that he understood that his and the other's chances for survival were decreased if the suspects were to begin shooting - rather than risk that outcome, he decided to act.

Every situation is obviously different but I think it boils down to whether or not you want to relinquish control to unstable teenage bad-guys, or take the initiative yourself to stay alive.

Personally - I don't want myself or my family members lives to depend on the
good graces of the BG.


Link: http://www.justnews.com/news/13585335/detail.html
 
#9 ·
...take the initiative yourself to stay alive.

Personally - I don't want myself or my family members lives to depend on the good graces of the BG.
This.

- Janq
 
#10 · (Edited)
Video Shows Gunmen Locking Diners In Cooler - Central Florida News 13

three masked gunmen robbed a Denny's restaurant. If you were carrying, would you take a chance of getting at least 1? would you just hand over your stuff and followed everyone to the cooler? I wonder if even an experienced shooter can pull that off...
Take a chance of getting at least 1??? I do not think that it should help very much, IMO it should make everything even worse. If you take such a chance you go for jackpot, nothing else. I agree with Back 40 when he says “… a BG is not taking you somewhere so that they can be more polite.”, but at the same time I guess it depends of the situation. I do not think it is possible to answer your question after just watching that short video. In any case, I carry a firearms because I do not count on the criminals' mercy.
 
#15 ·
Take a chance of getting at least 1??? I do not think that it should help very much, IMO it should make everything even worse. If you take such a change you go for jackpot, nothing else.
of course you go for broke, but as soon as you get the first one, you don't know what the other 2 would do and how good of a shot they are. If they take off, you're not gonna go chasing after them. That's why I only counted 1.
 
#11 ·
The correct answer is "it depends." Mas Ayoob and others have written about a 71 year old Marine who was in a Subway late one night when two armed robbers entered, a year and a half or two years ago. He had a little single-stack Para-Ord .45 loaded with Federal EFMJ, in a cheap nylon holster, carried MOB, with a spare mag in a pouch attached to the holster. At the outset, he remained calm and did nothing. When the customers were told to lie on the floor, he knew the odds of a peaceful outcome just went to nearly zero, so he concealed his draw while pretending to get down on the floor. He killed one robber and wounded the other before lockback, then discovered that his cheap holster and magazine had slipped down inside his pants. Thankfully, BG #2 ran and kept running, collapsing down the street, because the Marine had to take his pants down to get to the spare mag. As I recall, the second robber survived.
 
#13 ·
How often do you practice?
Can you point shoot as well as sighted fire?
Do you practice with movement?
How many high stress incidents have you been in?
Is your family with you?
Who will take care of them while you are engaged?
Are you aware of all perps?
What is your positioning relative to the other diners at the start of the incident?

Just some thoughts, none meant to suggest hesitation or engagement
 
#14 ·
these guys split up quite a few times and allowed the hostages to get very close to them on multiple occassions...while directing people into the cooler there was only one bg present...an easy takedown with close range multiple shots and then you have a funnel the other bad guys have to enter through to get to you unless they choose to exit hastily out the front after they hear your display....either way you have the upper hand...the possibility for panic is there but i'll take that chance in a herding situation...

they apparently were very polite to the customers as they herded them around...i dont believe they expected violence and left themselves wide open to attack on many occassions...a quick takedown in the back and cover waiting for the other 2 to arrive would have made for a more desireable situation odds wise...

i am very glad it worked out for these people but the herding to the cooler would have been a hard line to cross for me....
 
#17 ·
And it does play out that way often. [tommy]

First guy gets stung and everybody else bones out, while possibly popping off un-aimed cover fire in the opposite direction as they attempt to flee.
For average street thugs that's a fairly decent bet. Not o much though for hardened professionals.

A roll of the dice.

- Janq

"Two men enter, one man leaves." - Dr. Dealgood, Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome
 
#18 ·
There's no way I'm going to be locked in a walk-in to wait for some POS to come back and start killing people. You NEVER let them take you from the room, put you in the car, lock you up, or allow yourself to be taken anywhere alone. If it is my day to die, I'm doing it on my terms, I'm not letting some mope take my life without a fight.


Might I suggest the "El Presidente" drill as practice for such a scenario - start with 3 targets about a yard apart, 6rds in your gun and a 6rd reload, from the 10yd line draw and fire 2rds center mass of each target working from left to right then reload and repeat working from right to left.
You can apply this drill to this scenario by starting with the closest POS and working away from you.
 
#20 ·
You and everyone has one on their person at all times.

Two hands...


Silent, swift, immediate...And not dependent on gender or even to within extremes physical strength.

Watch the video closely...These blockheads (BGs) corralled a whole mass of people at once as alone leaving one guy to work them as the cowboy while the other two (off camera) are working the place.
Turn and contact the first guy standing there (who looks to be a buck fifty max) covering his mouth and either disable him there as he stands or drag/push him into the _freezer_ and lock it.

Now you have a tactical advantage because the other guys they didn't hear a sound.
It would be great if some other GG person offered to assist as well. : |

- Janq

P.S. - Even better is if anyone had a reasonably sharp impact weapon at hand, never mind a knife!, that thrust with _force_ direct into the threats neck...Again with hand over mouth to muffle his cry/scream.
Hideous to think of but so is shooting a human being or being shot or raped or watching someone else suffer same, before being placed in a commercial freezer.
It's all horrible...So one might need in the moment so as to survive to mentally disconnect and become someone or something else than who/what they normally are. : |
 
#21 ·
If someone had taken the BGs on, what are the odds that the BGs would have cut and run versus press the attack?
 
#22 ·
[Disclaimer: This is just the scenario I came up with in my head based on the footage from the video, and what I would do if I were the BG's. I am not an expert on situational tactics or strategies! If I would actually do any of this is a great question, as I have no idea what would be actually going through my head at the time.]

Scenario: Three BG's in a small to medium sized diner/restaurant with "hostages." One or Two BG's on crowd control, one BG escorting "hostages" to the cooler, with variable BG either on crowd control as stated or emptying cash register(s).

The best window of opportunity would be at the moment when your table/area is selected to be moved as this would place one crowd control BG and the escort BG immediately in front of you.

Your first target would be the BG closest to you, hopefully within ~5 feet as this shot should probably be a headshot. If you can't make a headshot at this distance, well you are S.O.L. as the next guy needs to be taken out with extreme prejudice, likely in the 3-5 round range (TAP-TAP-TAP-TAP-TAP) in center mass. This is the time to tell everyone to get under their tables. [CONTROLLED BREATHING IS CRITICAL].

The last BG will likely be confused at this point, and will likely be coming around to check out what happened. (It is very likely that the BG will think that his people were shooting, not you). He will be either directly in front of you or behind you so you need to move appropriately in his direction, quickly but in control. The moment he presents himself is your time to act in whichever manner you see fit. I'd likely first tell him to drop his gun, unless it was already pointed in my direction. If it is pointed at me, I immediately fire at center mass until he is no longer threat.

(I know some of you are talking about an adrenaline dump before you act, which is possible, but if you were prepared mentally and were in condition yellow beforehand, it shouldn't be a full on dump, just enough to allow you to hone your focus and concentration. Remember to breathe! Deep breaths in and out to keep you in control! You will definitely experience an adrenaline dump after your fire the first shot so "tactical" breathing becomes paramount).

[Disclaimer: This is just the scenario I came up with in my head based on the footage from the video, and what I would do if I were the BG's. I am not an expert on situational tactics or strategies! If I would actually do any of this is a great question, as I have no idea what would be actually going through my head at the time.]
 
#23 ·
Taking what it says..... they robbed the customers as well and one customer "was able to hide a cell phone".... which implies that they actually checked the customers.

So, based upon that...... everyone hit the floor, because it would be "on".

1) if they are checking people they would find the gun, and I'm not giving up the gun.
2) every case I know of, when they put you in a cooler it is to shoot them so there are no witnesses.

I'm afraid somewhere in there, I would be looking for an opportunity or making one.
 
#24 ·
1) if they are checking people they would find the gun, and I'm not giving up the gun.
Good point to bring up...

I definitely would not want to give up a gun because the moment at which you do, based on appearance of course, (clean hair cut and shave/shadow) it's likely that they will assume you are an off-duty LEO which will be either a very good thing or a very bad thing depending on the BG.
 
#25 ·
Usually, in too many instances, going into the cooler means an execution to get rid of the witnesses, like laying on the floor face down, depending on armed robbers to let you live, maybe on a whim. If you choose to shoot, you might save an innocent life or two, even if one of them does not include you.
 
#26 ·
I'm going to side with Janq and others here and go with... "it depends...". With just the picture I see linked here, I see a BG with one hand "herding" people into an are and his other hand somewhere by his side. Easy target. Action beats reaction. If I'm smart and in tune with what's going on, I can get him without an issue at close range as I'm being "herded" into that area. I see no other BGs in that area according to the picture. Now it's 2 vs 1 and I'm moving to an area of advantage after taking BG1. One of them is down and the other's are probably now going "***!!!".... my advantage. If the "herding" area is into a cooler or freezer than I am probably in an area at the rear of the buisness where the BGs only access is straight down my line of fire. They have to come to me. I find my best "Stallone movie" position and play it by ear....

Could I do it? Who the heck knows. I've never been put in that situation so I don't really know. I can only hope and train my way to being as good as I can be at any given time. One thing I absolutely will NOT do is allow myself, my family, or my friends to be slaughtered regardless of what the odds are.

I'm going home, my family is going home, and my friends are going home today. If someone is on the unhappy end of the "Odds are.." stick, then so be it.
 
#29 ·
A good point this brings up is reconciling your trigger point with any window of opportunity.

If your trigger point is putting people on the floor or searching/disarming them, all three perps may be there for that leaving little/no window of opportunity.

If a window of opportunity appears but your trigger point has not been met, that is the time for reconciling/decision making.
 
#30 ·
This one is tough. If I had family with me to protect, they would have to come first and I would do what I had to do to keep them safe above all. If I had no family or friends with me I would have to choose the best opportunity so as not to get into a hostage situation where the other people get herded into the cooler by one or two of the BG's and held at gunpoint or killed.

I would try to get some kind of separation of the BG's from the other people.
 
#31 ·
I may be dense....



I may be dense, but are you saying that having family with you increases or decreases your willingness to be herded into a freezer?
 
#32 ·
Like others have said, it depends as to exactly what I would do on a lot of circumstances but, one thing I know I'm not doing, is going down without a fight.
I sincerely hope I never have to find out! :wink:
 
#33 · (Edited)
I have already resolved “I will die on my feet fighting, not on my knees begging” I will not be moved to a more secure kill field. If the time ever comes I hope I have the resolve to follow through.

Wait for your best opportunity/first clear shot at the closest BG, at your shot the BGs will likely be in momentary disorientation, the unexpected LOUD shot (hopefully) will cause a short circuit in their ORDNAL (?) loop causing hesitation. Press the attack, be swift, be violent, be merciless, any hesitation will allow the opportunity for them to kill you or innocents; additional yelling and screaming on your part to add to the confusion and disorientation of the BGs.

As has been stated by Janq and others; most street punks will cave at any opposition; look at the number of videos of armed BGs fleeing when confronted by store clerks with mops etc. You can’t count it, be prepared to shoot them all without hesitation.
 
#34 ·
I'm not being herded into any dang freezer or cooler or back room, I don't give a dang what I have to fight with, a dang stick will do if that's all I have. I'll fake a heart attack to get one of them closer, I do whatever I have to get one of them close enough to do whatever I have to.
 
#36 ·
Good point, as a 70+ yr old man did that in a fast food restaurant (faked a heart attack) when they were herding them down a hall to a bathroom, and then shot the BG. The others were in a different area, heard shots and ran.
 
#37 ·
I'm not going anywhere with anyone at gunpoint. I'm sure that the six women who got shot in that Lane Bryant clothing store in Tinley Park, Illinois thought they were just going to get robbed when the murderer took them in the back room.

When you're on your knees or face down is too late to decide to do something. If I'm going to get shot, I'd rather it be in the front in a gunfight than in the back of the head, execution style.
 
#39 ·
I will not allow myself or those in my party so to speak to be moved to smaller more likely kill zone. If they begin searching people or herding them to the back Ill flip the coin so to speak. Im either OC or CC EVERYDAY. They WILL find my gun and I might be taken for Off duty LE or the like. I like the saying from the movie domino for this because it FITS. In a situation like this, if you choose to fight you just flipped the coin. Heads you live Tails you die. Its a choice only you can make at that time and at that place. YOu can only practice the situation and pray it NEVER happens. Its a chance and the odds that are stacked against you are usually never good and you have to accept one big thing - Life isnt like a good movie, the good guys dont always win and they dont always LIVE.

Also +1 on the silent takedown choice!

Just my take, but like I said, Ill take the flip of a coin and take the chance in this situation.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top