Would you try to do something?

Would you try to do something?

This is a discussion on Would you try to do something? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Video Shows Gunmen Locking Diners In Cooler - Central Florida News 13 three masked gunmen robbed a Denny's restaurant. If you were carrying, would you ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array tommy3rd's Avatar
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    Would you try to do something?

    Video Shows Gunmen Locking Diners In Cooler - Central Florida News 13

    three masked gunmen robbed a Denny's restaurant. If you were carrying, would you take a chance of getting at least 1? would you just hand over your stuff and followed everyone to the cooler? I wonder if even an experienced shooter can pull that off...


  2. #2
    Member Array titleist's Avatar
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    3 on 1 is poor odds. I might make the trip to the cooler if everything is going smoothly. Stay ready in case anything goes "wrong" (relatively), but placing 6 shots before they place one is gonna be quite a feat under stress. If my lunch buddy had an extra heater, might even the odds up a bit.

  3. #3
    Member Array kinoons's Avatar
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    I think I'd too go along quietly. Three on one are piss awfull odds, if everyone appears to be coming out of this none the worse for wear the smart play appears to be staying vigliant, but quiet.

  4. #4
    Member Array Back 40's Avatar
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    I believe that you would need to be calm and go with the flow, until they want to move you to the back. 9 time out of 10 that is where the "bad" things are going to happen. Don't let them move you! I always tell my wife that a BG is not taking you somewhere so that they can be more polite. They are taking you there so they have more control and less odds of detection.....exactly what you dont want.

    If you have to fight be swift, viscous and have no mercy

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back 40 View Post
    I believe that you would need to be calm and go with the flow, until they want to move you to the back. 9 time out of 10 that is where the "bad" things are going to happen. Don't let them move you! I always tell my wife that a BG is not taking you somewhere so that they can be more polite. They are taking you there so they have more control and less odds of detection.....exactly what you dont want.

    If you have to fight be swift, viscous and have no mercy
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    Absolutely!

    I'll take 1:3 (defending self) vs. 1:10 (what typically happens after herding).
    Last edited by DaveH; May 21st, 2010 at 03:08 PM. Reason: sp ck roadkill
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  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Stictly a judgement call that is best made at the moment based on a number of things. This one turned out relatively ok. Some have not.

    Of note in the first few seconds of the video was the two run-ins, then the sneaky flanker.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titleist View Post
    3 on 1 is poor odds. I might make the trip to the cooler if everything is going smoothly. Stay ready in case anything goes "wrong" (relatively), but placing 6 shots before they place one is gonna be quite a feat under stress. If my lunch buddy had an extra heater, might even the odds up a bit.
    This is a perfect example of why it is a good idea to carry a reserve ammo magazine, especially for those of us who carry a 1911.
    Six rounds is 75% of capacity on an eight round stick and 60% for a ten rounder.

    Anyone on the street carrying less than eight rounds is woefully inadequate.
    I don't believe a lot of people think of things in this way, and do the math.

    As to firing six shots, that might not be how I would make the play.
    One shot to the first man to stun if not put hm down...Reposition myself as relative to him (assume he's still alive and threat capable!) while also looking for T2 and T3.
    Fire once or maybe twice into T2 if he's spotted alone. If not then it's T2 and T3 for one and then a follow up on to either for additional rounds as necessary.

    And that is assuming and hoping I don't miss/drop a shot!

    All the while I continue to employ the Casius Clay technique; 'Stick & Move'...And try to keep track of known GGs (customers and employees) among my background as well as my 4, 6, and 8.

    A ton of work and very high stress with great personal risk.
    Or, one could play the other side of the coin and be led into a room with no exit.

    Terrible choices either way but circumstance requires that a choice be made, and by that you are stuck with it. : |

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #8
    Member Array CenterOfMass's Avatar
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    A few years back in Florida, this same scenario happened in a fast food joint only there were two BG's and not three. One of the customers was a 71 year-old former Marine helicopter pilot from Vietnam enjoying a peaceful meal. When ordered to the cooler, he shot both suspects with his 1911.

    When interviewed, he said something to the affect that he understood that his and the other's chances for survival were decreased if the suspects were to begin shooting - rather than risk that outcome, he decided to act.

    Every situation is obviously different but I think it boils down to whether or not you want to relinquish control to unstable teenage bad-guys, or take the initiative yourself to stay alive.

    Personally - I don't want myself or my family members lives to depend on the
    good graces of the BG.


    Link: http://www.justnews.com/news/13585335/detail.html
    Last edited by CenterOfMass; May 22nd, 2010 at 11:54 AM.
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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterOfMass View Post
    ...take the initiative yourself to stay alive.

    Personally - I don't want myself or my family members lives to depend on the good graces of the BG.
    This.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommy3rd View Post
    Video Shows Gunmen Locking Diners In Cooler - Central Florida News 13

    three masked gunmen robbed a Denny's restaurant. If you were carrying, would you take a chance of getting at least 1? would you just hand over your stuff and followed everyone to the cooler? I wonder if even an experienced shooter can pull that off...
    Take a chance of getting at least 1??? I do not think that it should help very much, IMO it should make everything even worse. If you take such a chance you go for jackpot, nothing else. I agree with Back 40 when he says “… a BG is not taking you somewhere so that they can be more polite.”, but at the same time I guess it depends of the situation. I do not think it is possible to answer your question after just watching that short video. In any case, I carry a firearms because I do not count on the criminals' mercy.
    Last edited by GM; May 21st, 2010 at 08:17 PM.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Array JohnLeVick's Avatar
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    The correct answer is "it depends." Mas Ayoob and others have written about a 71 year old Marine who was in a Subway late one night when two armed robbers entered, a year and a half or two years ago. He had a little single-stack Para-Ord .45 loaded with Federal EFMJ, in a cheap nylon holster, carried MOB, with a spare mag in a pouch attached to the holster. At the outset, he remained calm and did nothing. When the customers were told to lie on the floor, he knew the odds of a peaceful outcome just went to nearly zero, so he concealed his draw while pretending to get down on the floor. He killed one robber and wounded the other before lockback, then discovered that his cheap holster and magazine had slipped down inside his pants. Thankfully, BG #2 ran and kept running, collapsing down the street, because the Marine had to take his pants down to get to the spare mag. As I recall, the second robber survived.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterOfMass View Post
    A few years back in Florida, this same scenario happened in a fast food joint only there were two BG's and not three. One of the customers was a former Marine pilot from Vietnam enjoying a peaceful lunch. When ordered to the cooler, he let all the other employees/customers go ahead and he hung back. He shot and killed both suspects with his 1911.

    When interviewed, he said something to the affect that he understood that his and the other's chances for survival were decreased if the suspects were to begin shooting in the cooler space - rather than risk that outcome, he decided to act.

    Every situation is obviously different but I think it boils down to whether or not you want to relinquish control to unstable teenage bad-guys, or take the initiative yourself to stay alive.

    Personally - I don't want myself or my family members lives to depend on the
    good graces of the BG.
    That was Mr. Thomas Terry in Anniston, Alabama. You can see his story in the Armed Citizen at this link:
    The Armed Citizen, Mar 1992

    I think it is the first story in the list for March '92.
    Actually he (Mr. Terry) says the story is not quite accurate, but I do not remember in what way.

    I know after the incident the cops told him "Good shooting!".
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    How often do you practice?
    Can you point shoot as well as sighted fire?
    Do you practice with movement?
    How many high stress incidents have you been in?
    Is your family with you?
    Who will take care of them while you are engaged?
    Are you aware of all perps?
    What is your positioning relative to the other diners at the start of the incident?

    Just some thoughts, none meant to suggest hesitation or engagement

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    these guys split up quite a few times and allowed the hostages to get very close to them on multiple occassions...while directing people into the cooler there was only one bg present...an easy takedown with close range multiple shots and then you have a funnel the other bad guys have to enter through to get to you unless they choose to exit hastily out the front after they hear your display....either way you have the upper hand...the possibility for panic is there but i'll take that chance in a herding situation...

    they apparently were very polite to the customers as they herded them around...i dont believe they expected violence and left themselves wide open to attack on many occassions...a quick takedown in the back and cover waiting for the other 2 to arrive would have made for a more desireable situation odds wise...

    i am very glad it worked out for these people but the herding to the cooler would have been a hard line to cross for me....

  15. #15
    Member Array tommy3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GM View Post
    Take a chance of getting at least 1??? I do not think that it should help very much, IMO it should make everything even worse. If you take such a change you go for jackpot, nothing else.
    of course you go for broke, but as soon as you get the first one, you don't know what the other 2 would do and how good of a shot they are. If they take off, you're not gonna go chasing after them. That's why I only counted 1.

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