You think you might have emotional trouble shooting a bad guy?
This is a discussion on You think you might have emotional trouble shooting a bad guy? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Preaching to the choir here Ram Rod... but you probably already knew that about me.
I was just posting this story to start a conversation ...
May 24th, 2010 10:53 PM
Preaching to the choir here Ram Rod... but you probably already knew that about me.
I was just posting this story to start a conversation and point out a stark reality a lot of folks may not understand.
We are now faced with an entire generation of people who have no concept of what it is to take responsibility for their actions.
I see people like the one I described on Judge Judy everyday, but not everyone does.
For those who happened to see the show today, they got to see a kid who had no responsibility for what he did. And yet he knew what he did was wrong. But knowing what he did was wrong, he just didn't feel like it was his "responsibility to be financially liable for the damage he did."
He literally did not see where he was responsible for the damage because it wasn't his car. It was her car and the police's fault for chasing him. His thuggery and theft of the car played absolutely no role in his consciousness. He had absolutely no moral compass.
His reason for carjacking was another sign of having no moral compass. He was getting too cold to continue walking home, so he decided to take what didn't belong to him.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
May 24th, 2010 10:53 PM
May 24th, 2010 10:55 PM
I can't help but blame Hollywood and the media for desensitizing the younger generation. In the old days, when I was a kid, movies and TV were easy to separate from reality. Six guns fired countless times. People got kicked, punched, fell off buildings, down flights of stairs, yet there was no blood, no broken bones, their hat never fell off and their clothes never got messed. Today, blood and gore, violence, devil worship and satanic horror are so common place, no one is shocked or scared.
We are told and taught to obey laws and respect other people, yet Hollywood stars, politicians and sports heroes act as if laws and civility don't apply to them. Hardly a day goes by when I'm not passed by a speeding police cruiser, a speeding garbage truck or city bus. I'm sure people constantly ask themselves why they have to obey the laws when others in positions of responsibility don't.
We read every day about people who commit criminal acts having a rap sheet as long as your arm who are consistently given passes by the legal system. So is it any wonder we are living in a culture of selfishness and greed.
Our government is trying its hardest to remove God from our daily lives. In many cases, a strong religious belief is the only conscience a person carries in their heart. Without it we are no better than animals.
I'm of an age where uncivilized behavior was not tolerated. People who will not or cannot practice self-control would be treated like a rabid dog.
Any regrets I would have in hindsight would be purely for the fact that I never had to nor have any desire to take another human life. But I am prepared to change with the times.
May 24th, 2010 11:07 PM
I would feel more regret being forced to shoot a rabid dog than one of the human parasites that prey on society. I consider them sub-human.
You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
May 24th, 2010 11:19 PM
For me it is as simple as this:
1. If I feel that I am in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm I will draw, shoot and continue shooting until the threat is terminated (i.e. the assault is over/the danger has passed/etc.) and at that point will immediately stop shooting, dial 911 on my cellfone and insist to the police that the attacker (dead or alive) be arrested. I will do all of the other things that I have been trained to do regarding a secondary threat, making those around me know that I am the good guy, etc. I will call for medical attention for the bad guy and anyone else that might be injured. I will not make a statement to the police other than "I did not want to shoot but had no choice - I am in shock and wish medical attention and to speak to my attorney before making any further statements."
I would not hesitate for even a fraction of a second to take the life of a perpetrator/attacker/bad guy under these circumstances. My "rules of engagement" have been established well in advance, I have trained to the best of my ability until it is automatic that (a) I know the rules of engagement and live within their bounds; and (b) I would not hesitate in engaging under the correct circumstances. (i.e. for instance, don't go shooting a plainclothes LEO chasing and shooting at a fellow that just robbed a bank and shot two tellers).
Would I have trouble later? You betcha I would. Asides from the legal troubles, etc., I would have a huge emotional problem with having taken another human life but you can bet your ass I would live with it.
The same holds true of capital punishment. If they ever need a guy to pull the switch I would have no problem doing so but would have the very same issues later on with having taken a human life. Would I pull the switch if called upon to do so? You betcha.
Anyone recall the system for firing squads during WWII? The squad was generally about ten men if available; but regardless of the size of the squad a formal firing squad was issued several live rounds and several blank or dummy rounds. That way, theoretically, one never knew if he made the 'kill shot'. It was supposed to work but in practicality did not as one could get a 'feel' for whether or not their shot was a 'kill shot' by placement, timing, feel, etc. But it was a necessary 'evil' and so is the use of lethal force in protecting oneself and one's loved ones, etc.
Would I ever use lethal force in the protection of property? Never. But you come into my home uninvited and I will assume you bear me ill will and I will assume that my life is in danger and you WILL leave feet first. If, on the other hand, I arrive home and you are wheeling my stereo out the front door.... it is 911 that I will be calling and no lethal force encounter will take place unless the situation escalates.
You MUST know your rules of engagement in advance and practice and train constantly in order to effect same without thinking about the aftermath and what is in your heart or may be in your mind then or later. Then and only then are you qualified to carry a weapon in defense of yourself.
At home, I believe it to be a different story and different rules of engagement; you come into my home and you leave feet first. My doors are always locked these days.
The aftermath emotionally? Hurt. Pain. But not as much as for the dead perp and his/her family. And after all, that's the point is it not? And that's why the violent crime rate in shall issue states and in states and countries where one is permitted to defend one's home have plummetted.... and conversely, why where gun bans have been effected the crime crates have skyrocketed.
May 24th, 2010 11:47 PM
There was a guy named "Frank". Now Frank was a nice guy, he really was. But Frank loved cars..... and especially one's that are fun to drive and that he was unlikely to ever be able to afford. So , Frank stole them. Now, I have to give it to Frank... he didn't steal just "any" cars. He stole Ferrari's, Lambourghini's, Porche's, etc. and the LEO's could never catch him.... no wonder.
Frank owned a high-HP highly modified car, custom painted, etc. of his own that was "choice".
He was finally caught, although in an entertaining manner. The officer put him in the back of the car and walked away, leaving his car keys in the car. Yep, Frank stole the police car..... turned on the red lights and siren too. So, as we're listening to the radio we're hearing .... I see him , he's going down 2nd street and I'm right behind me . squelch.... " no YOU DON"T .. THAT's ME you are following". This went on for nearly 2 hrs. Keystone Kops would have loved it. No one could figure out which "car" to chase.
I however, had the honor of honors.
Frank had been in jail for about 2 weeks, and I got to go over and question Frank (I knew Frank well) about "his car"..... seems that while he was in jail... someone stole his car.
He went ballistic..... and I'm laughing, which he did not like at all. I told Frank, "you know when people learned you had stolen their car ? " "Well, now you know just how they felt".
Frank..... never stole another car when he eventually got out.
The point is, what applies to everyone else, is never supposed to apply to them.
May 24th, 2010 11:48 PM
Would I have emotional trouble after shooting a BG? NO, because I made the CHOICE to defend myself and those I love with lethal force KNOWING the end result should that time ever come.
By the way, love the story about "frank".
BETTER TO BE TRIED BY 12 THAN CARRIED BY 6
Hesitation kills faster than a bullet.
If your head is up your *$$ you are unaware of danger. You are in the perfect position to kiss it goodbye.
Open Carry LAW for Pennsylvania
May 25th, 2010 12:21 AM
1. What does the judge Judy show have to do with emotions of shooting someone?
2. Emotions will cause you to hesitate, hesitation will get you killed. If you get emotional easily, carry a can of pepper spray or a taser.
3. If you plan on carrying a firearm, train with it so much that if a stressful shoot/don't shoot situation ever presents itself, your training will take over instead of your emotions. Train like your life depends on it. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
4. I watch judge Judy too, but don't tell anyone.
May 25th, 2010 01:14 AM
No. I highly doubt that in that instant, with the blood pumping and the adrenaline kicking that I would have a problem pulling that trigger. A valid threat to my life or well being out-trumps any regret I may later feel, at least in that moment.
Originally Posted by Bark'n
I do feel that taking a life (regardless of good or bad) is something that should never be taken lightly. I hope that it would bother me. After all, that is the difference between us and the BG's in many cases... we feel the weight of our actions.
I remember being a SP AUG at a little base in Korea when the schools were rioting/protesting outside the gates. I still hate thinking about those hours, knowing that if they run the gates I may have to shoot some of those kids (my age at the time) outside that gate... but at the same time, the decision was made.
End all, be all: Pull the trigger... at least that way you have regrets instead of just 6' of ground above you.
Just my 2 cents.
The will to win is meaningless without the will to prepare! -- Joe Gibbs
You live and learn. At any rate, you live. -- Douglas Adams
What's the best gun to have in a gun fight? The one you have on you!
P90DC, LCP, PT145, PT140, LCP, Rem 870 and so on and so on...
May 25th, 2010 01:28 AM
During a lethal incident, you don't think about emotions. There are none and just as well, because you do not have time for them.
After the fact, there are plenty. I don't care who you are and how much internet bravado you are full of, there are all kinds of emotions you go through. From the smack in the face the realization of your own mortality gives you, to being ticked the next few weeks (if you are lucky) are now consumed by this action, to finally understanding that the steaming body laying on the sidewalk just isn't a BG. A BG yes, but still a human being with a history. The range you go through is simply amazing.
Anyway, do not be so callous and arrogant to think you will shoot another human down and give it no more thought as if you just squashed a bug. It just doesn't work that way for the rational human being.
May 25th, 2010 01:43 AM
I try to look at things like this through 2 rules, neither hard nor fast. Just a lens to help look at a situation like this.
1- I will give anyone the same amount of respect I am given. If you are kind, respectful, etc you will receive the same from me. And generally speaking, I will give more respect than I may initial get. That's my personality. But if my, or my families, lives mean so little to you that you will risk them for something stupid. Do not expect anything from me. If you are endangering my life I intend on returning the favor in spades.
2- I WILL GO HOME TO MY FAMILY!!! It's been my motto for a long time. I will go home if I have anything to say about it. Where anyone else goes is entirely up to them and their actions. And if their actions lead me to have to act defensively, then hopefully it will be swift and as violent as needed so that I can go home. Where they end up is irrelevant at the moment.
That said, Sixto has a strong point. I have know folks who had to take a life in defense of theirs. It's not pretty. And it nearly cost my dad his life, and likely a bit of his sanity, from doing it in war time. It's been 30+ years and I know it's still a heavy burden to bear. But when the options are down to you or them, you do what you have to do.
I won't mind a bit if I'm an old man and all this talk, training, and preparation ends up being for nothing.
I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!
"Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"
May 25th, 2010 02:12 AM
I saw the same show today. That punk kid kind of pissed me off.
G22 .40 S&W and G23 .40 S&W Sig Sauer:
P938 9mm Smith and Wesson:
Model 437 .38 Spl, Model 65 357 Mag, and Sigma SW9VE 9mm
May 25th, 2010 03:02 AM
If I was threatened, I hope I would stop it. After wards though, I know I would have troubles, I hope anyone would!
Ruger LC9 (when the girlfriend lets me carry her gun)
"First Duty is To Remember"
May 25th, 2010 03:09 AM
after the fact, may be but I do not think so. the BG made his choice and I have already made mine. My family deserves to live. my family deserves to have there father.
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
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May 25th, 2010 03:28 AM
I hope to God I WOULD feel some emotional chaos about taking a life - likely after the event. I assume at the point where you are going to die or act in SD, it's instinct and beyond awareness of internal states - aside from fear that is.
But later - of course. And hopefully I could find peace with my actions in time.
And even more hopefully, I hope I will never be in that position.
May 25th, 2010 03:48 AM
Studies have shown correlation, but no causation; ie, they are related but not the cause of one another.
Originally Posted by GunGeezer
Read the book "Generation Kill". lt's about our soldiers and the link to violent video games, music, etc and how efficient and successful the current generation of soldiers are at killing the enemy.
I grew up with that stuff. My first video game was Wolfenstein 3D, the first ever first person shooter game (first person perspective, ie looking over a gun). That is the only genre of video game I play. I'm 29 years old (as of last Tuesday) and have never committed a violent crime. I just got home from work and spent a little over 3 hours playing such a game. Now I'm heading off to bed, after I kiss my 3yo son and my wife goodnight. Living a normal life.
Hollywood is not to blame. If so, why did I turn out just fine?
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