You think you might have emotional trouble shooting a bad guy?

This is a discussion on You think you might have emotional trouble shooting a bad guy? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Obviously, the soul searching and and questioning should be done and settled before even deciding to conceal carry. Much like Timezoneguy, I have thought about ...

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Thread: You think you might have emotional trouble shooting a bad guy?

  1. #91
    Member Array thedogfather's Avatar
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    Obviously, the soul searching and and questioning should be done and settled before even deciding to conceal carry. Much like Timezoneguy, I have thought about scenarios or parameters. I try to stay "condition yellow" when I'm out and about but I'm sure if anything comes down, it will happen very fast and may not fit a scenario or parameter I have thought about.

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  3. #92
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I got into a conversation yesterday with a total stranger, perhaps a sales person at a sporting goods store, maybe just another customer who was trying to be helpful.

    He told me he shot a rapist several years back. Told me that he still has nightmares and has stopped carrying.

    If you have a conscience, morals, respect for other human life, it will haunt you--- even if you were entirely legally justified.
    No, if you have YOUR "conscience, morals, and respect for other human life", manifested in YOUR way.

    Some would say that if you have a "conscience, morals, respect for other human life", you wouldn't carry or HAVE a firearm and you certainly wouldn't use it to harm another human being no matter WHAT the situation. Doesn't that mean that YOU (assuming that you have and carry firearms and would use them to defend yourself or another) don't have a "conscience, morals, respect for human life"? If you disagree, what makes them wrong and you right?

    My reaction to having stopped someone from brutalizing a woman wouldn't be, "Wouldn't it be awful if I stopped ANOTHER rape?"

    My "conscience and morals" tell me that you shouldn't run around committing violent crimes against other people. My common sense tells me that those are dangerous activities and that if you engage in them, you should expect your victims to try to stop you by any means necessary, be it beating, stabbing, shooting or fire. My common sense also tells me that there's no point in feeling bad about stopping somebody from willfully doing physical harm to others. He obviously didn't feel bad about it or he wouldn't have tried to do it.

    I have respect for human life that's not going around doing everything it can to wrongfully end or cause gratuitous suffering to other human life. "Human life" that's running around raping women can chase itself. It won't get one iota of sympathy from me. Having sympathy for rapists is like having sympathy for a liver fluke or the AIDS virus.

  4. #93
    Member Array 45tek's Avatar
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    Anyone who think they're not, is fooling themselves. We are human, thats a fact. At least for the initial day or two you feel kinda funky, then you start thinking...."WOW, I couldve been put in the ground by the scumbag and my family would be mourning my death, and holding vigils and what not" Then you get over it, and thank whoever you had the stones and the know-how to keep you and/or your family members here and upright. Everyday you recieve a smile or hear laughter from a family member or friend it gets easier..JMHO

  5. #94
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    During a lethal incident, you don't think about emotions. There are none and just as well, because you do not have time for them.

    After the fact, there are plenty. I don't care who you are and how much internet bravado you are full of, there are all kinds of emotions you go through. From the smack in the face the realization of your own mortality gives you, to being ticked the next few weeks (if you are lucky) are now consumed by this action, to finally understanding that the steaming body laying on the sidewalk just isn't a BG. A BG yes, but still a human being with a history. The range you go through is simply amazing.

    Anyway, do not be so callous and arrogant to think you will shoot another human down and give it no more thought as if you just squashed a bug. It just doesn't work that way for the rational human being.
    Exactly. Thank you. I temper my responses as much as possible as I did here for just that reason. I don't know how many folks have actually experienced such events, but the emotional drainage after the adrenaline rush is just that, draining.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  6. #95
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    I had a conversation with myself and was 100% convinced that not only would I kill someone in defense of myself, my family and maybe others, but it would not phase me in the least, and anyone who cannot say those things should not be walking around with a firearm that will probably get used against them if they are thinking that way.
    Perhaps this is based upon been there, done that, know the consequences experience. Not just assumptions. I suspect it is not. The italicized comment sounds like immature internet bravado at best or a sociopath at worst. Regardless, it an extremely naive conclusion. Killing a human being is not swatting flies.

    Out of hundreds of those I have met who have killed people both in and out of combat the only two I can think of who did not experience any remorse regrets or other emotional conflict was a convicted contract killer and a serial killer both certified sociopaths. Not people I hope to emulate. Based on the experience of others who have killed. To assume that killing a human being any human being is without emotional, spiritual and financial consequences is irresponsible and naive at best. Rather it is better to assume that there will be consequences. Decide if we are willing and prepared to accept those possible consequence. Having the emotional maturity to understand that there is likely going to be financial, legal, social, emotional, psychological or spiritual fallout from killing someone does not disqualify from carrying a gun. As long as that does not deter us from doing the right thing when needed.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  7. #96
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Out of hundreds of those I have met who have killed people both in and out of combat the only two I can think of who did not experience any remorse regrets or other emotional conflict was a convicted contract killer and a serial killer both certified sociopaths.
    That is an ideological position which may or may not apply to any other person.

    If somebody told you what you wanted to hear, is that what they REALLY felt?

    I cannot tell you what to feel. Conversely, you cannot tell any other person what to feel.

    I gave all of this a LOT of thought BEFORE I was commissioned as an Infantry officer in 1980. If I didn't think I could take somebody's life if necessary, I never would have signed on the dotted line. I never had to kill anybody. That doesn't mean that I have any regard for somebody trying to maim or murder me, or a loved one.

    I suspect that I know from where your apparent beliefs arise, and that influence is totally lacking in me.

    You're free to have whatever feelings you want, or to merely say what those feelings are, candidly or not. I'm free to have completely different and opposed feelings.

  8. #97
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    I never had to kill anybody.
    You talk like a tough guy who would never have a second thought from doing so. But you never did, so you don't really know. You can puff your chest and thump it, but you never really know until after it happens. You seem to have put the possibility out of your mind, and that's fine, but it's just opinion based upon feelings...and not fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    You're free to have whatever feelings you want, or to merely say what those feelings are, candidly or not. I'm free to have completely different and opposed feelings.
    Just based on opinion, and not fact...since you don't really know how it would affect you.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  9. #98
    Member Array CommonMan101's Avatar
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    I hope I never have to find out.

    But I am prepared to find out if it means losing my life, the life of a family member or an innocent instead.

    It will be what it will be.

    I still believe the world is a safer place when evil is taken out and you don't have to worry about keeping an eye on a deranged person or rabid animal that risks them taking more life by letting them live.

    I would definitely have a tough time at a funeral for my child who died at the hands of someone I had a legitimate reason and opportunity to take out of society - jury duty counts here as the same to me.

  10. #99
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngda9 View Post
    You talk like a tough guy
    I talk like somebody who knows that your feelings are just that, YOUR feelings.

    You can't tell me what to feel, nor can I tell you what to feel.

    I've known gay people who simply could not grasp, and indeed REFUSED to grasp that men weren't and COULDN'T be sexually attractive to me. I've known religious people who simply could not grasp and indeed REFUSED to grasp that I had no belief in the supernatural, nevermind their particular flavor of it. It simply didn't fit into either of their world views. It had zero effect on MY feelings.

    As I said, an awful lot of this is IDEOLOGY rather than psychology. If whatever ideology, morality or religion tells you to be devastated that you killed Adolf Eichmann or Alton Coleman, that's fine with me. But I simply refuse to be bullied into pretending to feel something I don't feel.

  11. #100
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Wow, I couldn't believe what I just saw on Judge Judy.

    Okay, okay... Not only do I believe it, but I've actually known it for quite some time now. I just had never seen it actually displayed in such a stark reality before.

    Okay, here's the story.

    A sixteen year old man from Chicago is standing before Judge Judy with his father present. He is walking home from his girlfriends house and he is feeling too cold to walk the rest of the way home. He see's a woman getting out of her car in front of her house so he goes up to her, knocks her to the ground causing minor injuries and carjacks her.

    I get the jest that police see him driving erratically and attempt to pull him over. He runs from the police and gets into a major police chase which results in him crashing the car. He gets arrested and pleads down to a lesser charge resulting in a mere 5 years probation.

    The case is before Judge Judy because the woman is suing him for the damage to her car.

    As Judge Judy questions him she finds that he has 4 prior arrests, none of which led to any convictions. One arrest was for assault on a school teacher.

    He looks like a normal well dressed young man of high school age. His father is a carpenter who works six and seven days a week. He works with is father approx. 3 days per week.

    This kid actually believed he was not responsible for paying damages because it wasn't his car.


    He admitted that he knew what he did was wrong. He admitted it was his fault that he knocked the woman down, stole her car, got in a chase with police and crashed the car. However, it wasn't his responsibility to pay for the damages because it was the police's fault for chasing him and it also wasn't his car.

    Judge Judy went into a tirade over how this is what happens when no one is held accountable for their actions. Each time this kid got arrested, nothing happened to him. Even with the conviction in this case, nothing really happened to him other than five years probation.

    So, getting back to the title of my post... You think you may have a problem shooting a person who places you in a deadly force scenario? Well, chances are good, that person could not care less what happens to you and that they don't feel any responsibility for what they are doing to you.

    I looked at my wife after seeing that case and all she said was "It's too bad that in Chicago that woman isn't allowed to have a gun to protect herself." and "It's Chicago, if we're lucky, someones bullet will find that kid before he can hurt anyone else."

    Yep, we've got an entire generation of thugs who absolutely does not care about anyone or anything and will not accept any responsibility for their actions. That's a bad combination!

    Stay armed and remember, the one attacking you, likely couldn't care less what happens to you.
    They may not care what happens to their victims, but I can assure you sir that I myself would care what happens, and the resulting aftermath.

    That is what seperates us from them. Due to some of the situations I have found myself in over the years I have expirienced some of the aftermath, and no shots have been fired. Sleep disturbance, impotence, hypersexuality, depression and even consumption of too much ETOH to self-medicate what I was dealing with.

    I'm not John Wayne, and I'm quite aware of that. I expect to have some issues, as I do consider myself a rationale and caring human being, no matter how tough of a shell I try to put on. The kicker for me is, the alternative has to be worse than the aftermath.

    The worse alternative is death or grave bodily injury. The rest, with love of my family and friends, physician involvement and counseling and time can be dealt with.

    There are a multitude of things that a person can, but doesn't mean they will, expirience following a deadly encounter. I find it best to be prepared for them in case they do happen, or see the signs of them in someone else.

    So far I've been blessed with not having to fire my weapon, but it has been close. We won't know, each of us, if we can take a life until we do. We may freeze-up at the last moment, and our assailant may in fact kill us. The fact that I have had training allows me, or has in my instances, to delay discharging my weapon while being fully prepared to do so. I have the confidence of my training and situational awareness to give me that extra edge, but sometimes that isn't enough.

    Do I think I can take a life? Yes, but we won't know until we do. That is why I set the line so hard as to what is a life or death scenario, and look for other avenues if at all possible, that are still safe. I have no desire to find out if I can in fact take a human life, as I've been around a fair bit of death since a young age. I just know that I want to remain alive as long as I can and that I will fight for it.

    To use an analogy I hate, Sheepdog vs Wolf, wolves can smell other wolves and sheepdogs as well. The danger in being a sheepdog is that we become too much like the wolf we are trying to protect the flock from.

    Biker
    Last edited by BikerRN; May 27th, 2010 at 03:20 PM. Reason: typo

  12. #101
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    I talk like somebody who knows that your feelings are just that, YOUR feelings.

    You can't tell me what to feel, nor can I tell you what to feel.

    As I said, an awful lot of this is IDEOLOGY rather than psychology. If whatever ideology, morality or religion tells you to be devastated that you killed Adolf Eichmann or Alton Coleman, that's fine with me. But I simply refuse to be bullied into pretending to feel something I don't feel.
    That's all great...but you haven't killed anyone, by your own admission. So you can't testify to the fact as to how you'll feel(or not feel) AFTER having done so. All you're working with right now is an opinion on something that you know absolutely nothing about.

    Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    There are a multitude of things that a person can, but doesn't mean they will, expirience following a deadly encounter. I find it best to be prepared for them in case they do happen, or see the signs of them in someone else.
    Great attitude BikerRN. We should all prepare for the unknown.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  13. #102
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    I also see the self centered nature of many kids these days. It is all about “me” and others seldom come into consideration. We have a neighbor kid (he is actually 18 or older) who cuts though our yard to get out of the development. We have caught him and his only reply was “but it takes me longer if I go around”. Explaining about property rights, intrusion on our privacy and damage that is being done to our landscapeing does not matter. He continues to cut through because there is little that will happen to him if he gets caught. I think this mentality is all too common.

    In the self defense scenario, I feel that if somebody threatens me or my family with serious injury or death, considerations that are normally extended to the public are no longer valid. The attacker made the decision to put somebody at risk, I will do what I can to stop it, as quickly and effectively as I can.

    Now if my wife will allow me to buy an electric fence…….

  14. #103
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    Thunderous applause due to BikerRN on this one

    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    They may not care what happens to their victims, but I can assure you sir that I myself would care what happens, and the resulting aftermath.

    That is what seperates us from them. Due to some of the situations I have found myself in over the years I have expirienced some of the aftermath, and no shots have been fired. Sleep disturbance, impotence, hypersexuality, depression and even consumption of too much ETOH to self-medicate what I was dealing with.

    I'm not John Wayne, and I'm quite aware of that. I expect to have some issues, as I do consider myself a rationale and caring human being, no matter how tough of a shell I try to put on. The kicker for me is, the alternative has to be worse than the aftermath.

    The worse alternative is death or grave bodily injury. The rest, with love of my family and friends, physician involvement and counseling and time can be dealt with.

    There are a multitude of things that a person can, but doesn't mean they will, expirience following a deadly encounter. I find it best to be prepared for them in case they do happen, or see the signs of them in someone else.

    So far I've been blessed with not having to fire my weapon, but it has been close. We won't know, each of us, if we can take a life until we do. We may freeze-up at the last moment, and our assailant may in fact kill us. The fact that I have had training allows me, or has in my instances, to delay discharging my weapon while being fully prepared to do so. I have the confidence of my training and situational awareness to give me that extra edge, but sometimes that isn't enough.

    Do I think I can take a life? Yes, but we won't know until we do. That is why I set the line so hard as to what is a life or death scenario, and look for other avenues if at all possible, that are still safe. I have no desire to find out if I can in fact take a human life, as I've been around a fair bit of death since a young age. I just know that I want to remain alive as long as I can and that I will fight for it.

    To use an analogy I hate, Sheepdog vs Wolf, wolves can smell other wolves and sheepdogs as well. The danger in being a sheepdog is that we become too much like the wolf we are trying to protect the flock from.

    Biker
    Great post there.

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