Gray Area: Carrying on Federal Property? - Page 4

Gray Area: Carrying on Federal Property?

This is a discussion on Gray Area: Carrying on Federal Property? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Jon if I were you I too would not either. Hell to be honest I think I may have in fact done exactly what you ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Jon if I were you I too would not either.

    Hell to be honest I think I may have in fact done exactly what you describe at least twice in life while being 'armed' with a knife and attending a USPS service window to buy stamps and mail stuff as otherwise within grocery store and mall type commercial business environment.

    At the end of the day this is all silly.
    Why?
    Because concealed means concealed, as in nobody knows which makes the whole USPS in a store specific question moot.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    At the end of the day this is all silly. Why?
    Because concealed means concealed, as in nobody knows which makes the whole USPS in a store specific question moot.
    - Janq
    Bingo!
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    I would never have a gun anywhere in my vehicle or on my own person since we are subject to random inspections and K-9 searches. As for Federal property like parking near the post office or a recruiting station where I used to work, I just leave it in the trunk of my car, locked in a plannerbook holster. Besides, it's not obvious to put a planner in a trunk and since they don't enforce it, I just leave it in my car anyway. If they don't know, it shouldn't be an issue.

  4. #49
    VIP Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    BTW to VA in specific local regulation at Fairfax City ...
    http://www.fairfaxva.gov/ar/7-33%20....20premises.pdf
    ...
    Only applies to employees and volunteers -- not the general public. Local governments and Colleges in Virginia are authorized to do that.

    GMU has enacted administrative code:

    8VAC35-60-20. Possession of weapons prohibited.

    Possession or carrying of any weapon by any person, except a police officer, is prohibited on university property in academic buildings, administrative office buildings, student residence buildings, dining facilities, or while attending sporting, entertainment or educational events. Entry upon the aforementioned university property in violation of this prohibition is expressly forbidden.
    which is the subject of heated litigation at this time.

    See: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...a-members.html

    However, all that is not relevant to my originally question/issue about Colleges -- i.e., "Does the Federal Gun Control Act or any other Federal statute address carry on colleges and other institution of higher learning."

    I don't think so -- but I am willing to learn.
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  5. #50
    Senior Member Array CCWFlaRuger's Avatar
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    Within the confines of your vehicle, you are in a place where you have a "Reasonable expectation of security" ie, your car is like an extension of your home (In Florida anyhow) and as long as the firearm is secured in your vehicle, you are within your rights. However, if you should walk across, or even exit your vehicle on federal property, or god forbid brandish, then you are committing a felony.
    "You will not rise to the occasion and you will not default to your level of training. You WILL ONLY default to the level of training you have mastered."
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  6. #51
    Senior Member Array CCWFlaRuger's Avatar
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    The above applies to schools, banks, sporting events, and all other places where Concealed Carry is prohibited... the majority of which i would not feel secure leaving my gun locked in a vehicle anyhow.
    "You will not rise to the occasion and you will not default to your level of training. You WILL ONLY default to the level of training you have mastered."
    -Ruger P345; LCP
    -Mossberg 590A1; Model 42
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  7. #52
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > 930
    Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities.
    The Post Office has it own rules/regs in the Federal code. Read it below.

    Title 39 - Postal Service
    Chapter I - United States Postal Service
    Subchapter D - Organization and Administration
    Part 232 - Conduct on Postal Property
    232.1 - Conduct on Postal Property.
    Paragraph L
    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
    _____________________________________________
    (This means if you are mailing a long gun and have it wrapped up for mailing you can take it into the post office to mail as that is an official purpose. Having a permit to carry is not an official purpose. )
    If the feds own it or have control over it except for the National Parks and National Wildlife Refuges possession of a firearm is illegal. A stand alone buildin owned by the feds is off limits. A sidewalk that is a continuation of a sidewalk on a public street is public property and you can walk past the building on said sidewalk and not be in violation of federal law. If there is a side walk that goes off that public walkway or if there are steps off that public walkway that lead to the Federal Building then that is federal property. If they have a parking lot it is federal property. If the feds are renting an office in building only that office is off limits to carry. The parking lot for that building is not controlled by the feds. If the lot is it must be posted by federal law. If the building is owned by the feds it must be posted by federal law. If they rent an office that office must have a sign on or near its door by federal law.

    A mail box is federal property. Even the mail box on your house or at the curb even though you paid for it is considered federal property. The Federal rules state you can't legally leave a note for the owner of the house in a mail box without it having gone through the post office and have a stamp etc. Can't leave a flyer etc in a mail box. That is prohibited by federal law.

    IF the feds own it it is off limits. But the Post Office is what they call a Quasi Federal Agency. They have some control over it but it is not owned by the Federal Government. They did own it and all employees were federal employees in the past. They have it so screwed up now that the Governemnt still must approve rate hikes and the Government will even give them money to pay their bills but they must pay it all back which they have but maybe a year late.
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    Gary Slider

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  8. #53
    VIP Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post

    TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > 930
    Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities.


    But as I have posted before (including above), see:

    TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > 930
    Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
    ....
    g) As used in this section:
    (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
    [emphasis added]
    So, under 18,I,44, 930 sidewalk, grounds, parking lots, etc are not covered.

    However, the story does not end with 18,I,44, 930. Individual agencies can and do have all sort of "Regulations" which have force of law and which can end up with you in a gun-trap and in Federal court, if you cross into the grey area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
    The Post Office has it own rules/regs in the Federal code.


    And the VA, DoD, DoA, etc, etc, etc.

    Also, note that most of the rules/regs do not require the posting of the property before you can be prosecuted.

    The VA Regs/Rules are a particularly bad gun trap in this grey area -- as they cover all grounds, roads, parking lots, etc, etc and do not require posting to prosecute. Not only are some of their typical service sites not well marked, they own cemeteries [some of which are not posted but where carry is prohibited] in the middle of NPS lands [where carry is OK].

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
    If the feds own it or have control over it except for the National Parks and National Wildlife Refuges possession of a firearm is illegal.
    Not true!

    Check out DoI's Bureau of Land Management. DoA's USFS follows State law, sort of. DOD is all over the place re: possession of a firearm [from what you can have, how secured, etc to hunting, to use of the ranges] -- albeit carry of loaded handguns is typically limited/prohibited.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
    If there is a side walk that goes off that public walkway or if there are steps off that public walkway that lead to the Federal Building then that is federal property.
    True, but carry is not prohibited under 18,I,44, 930. However, under some agencies rules/regs it is true that possession is illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
    If the building is owned by the feds it must be posted by federal law. If they rent an office that office must have a sign on or near its door by federal law.
    Again only under 18,I,44, 930. Many rules/regs do not require posting to prosecute. As we have said the one we most likely come into contact with is the Postal Service -- See: my post at http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ml#post1492114


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post

    IF the feds own it it is off limits.
    Not by a long shot. I fight improperly posted Federal property all the time and win -- most of the time. I just got an letter form a Federal agency agreeing to remove a unlawful sign from some Federal property earlier this month.

    My typical process is start by asking under what authority the property is posted. If they come back under 18,I,44, 930, I challenge that it is not a “Federal facility” as g) (1) defines the term “Federal facility.” Sometimes it takes a half dozen times back and forth, from their management, through their law enforcement (if the have that authority) all the way to their General Council.

    BTW in the old "trust but verify" mode, in this case I'm still waiting to see when they actually do take the sign down and replace it with a "No Hunting" which they do have the authority to determine. If they don't I will elevate the issue.
    Last edited by DaveH; May 30th, 2010 at 10:29 PM. Reason: typo
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  9. #54
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    I typed to fast. When I said the Feds Own It it is off Limits I was talking about Buildings. I should have put that in there. The DoD, VA, DoA and DoI are Federal Agencies. The Post Office is controlled by the Feds in a lot of ways but is not a Federal Agency like the DoD, VA Etc. I have not seen a post office that did not have a sign posted with their sign. Federal Agencies must by law post their buildings or you must have been informed that no firearms are allowed to be convicted. If they don't post 930 does apply: They can post their parking lots if they wish. But they have to post them if they want no firearms in vehicles. If the parking lot has controlled entrances then it is off limits.

    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

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  10. #55
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Well, here .... no one can post or prohibit carry in a parking lot, park, walkway, grounds, etc. (including schools) ....... with the exception of Federal property. So, I think that's fairly clear.

  11. #56
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    Please point out the federal code concerning the DoD, VA etc. I can't find them in the Federal Code like I can for the Post Office. They can post parking lots. If it is fenced even if there is not gate just a fence surrounding the property with the entranced not fenced and not gate on it they can post it. It is Federal property. If they put signs on poles at the entrances to parking lots they can be off limits. The DOD and VA fall under the Federal Code and they have to post their buildings if firearms are not allowed. If they are not posted then you have a defense if charged. You will see a sign at Military Posts when you enter that guns are not allowed. VA Hospitals are posted. At least the ones I have been to.

    Even the National Parks are posting outdoor areas in some parks. Places where Park Rangers meet in the great outdoors to give tours have been posted. They can post anything they wish. Not saying that is legal but they can post it and they can charge you and give you your day in court.

    The Corp of Engineers is a Federal Agency. Their dams are posted but they own all the land and waters on may of their lakes especially the ones that were built for flood control. They lease some of that land back to States to build State Parks etc. But the Corp still has ownership of the land and lake. They don't post the lakes and their land just the dam sites. I can not find where one person has been charged under federal law for carrying on a Corp Engineers Lake.

    Yes the BLM owns a great bit of land and you can carry on it but All Federal Buildings on that property must be posted or you have a defense against carrying in those buildings. Same with national forests. They go with State Law on National Forest Lands. But the Federal Buildings on the National Forests are posted or again you have a defense if charged with carrying there. If the Feds own the building they fall under federal law and carry there is not allowed but they have to post the buildings. If the feds have a parking lot they own and they post the parking lot then no state law allows you to carry there.
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    Gary Slider

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  12. #57
    VIP Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
    Please point out the federal code concerning the DoD, VA etc. I can't find them in the Federal Code like I can for the Post Office.
    As I said above one of the big problems is that the Regulations, Rules, Orders, and Directives tend to be buried in Code of Federal Regulations [or lower the the whole hierarchal structure of regulatory -- not in the statuary law, e.g., U.S.C.

    Some are further buried in Rules, Orders, and Directives, which are issued down to the local level pursuant to C.F.R.s issued pursuant to U.S.C. sections. Sometimes there are even more levels. Such as DOD's Base-Commanders' memorandums.

    At the C.F.R. level, for example, here is the VA's C.F.R. covering all "all property under the charge and control of VA"

    Section

    BTW -- note that it is buried way down the page in a document covering a bunch of admin stuff.

    Code of Federal Regulations]
    [Title 38, Volume 1]
    [Revised as of July 1, 2004]
    From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
    [CITE: 38CFR1.218]

    [Page 16-20]

    TITLE 38--PENSIONS, BONUSES, AND VETERANS' RELIEF

    CHAPTER I--DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

    PART 1_GENERAL PROVISIONS--Table of Contents

    Sec. 1.218 Security and law enforcement at VA facilities.

    (a) Authority and rules of conduct. Pursuant to 38 U.S.C. 901, the
    following rules and regulations apply at all property under the charge
    and control of VA (and not under the charge and control of the General Services Administration) and to all persons entering in or on such property. The head of the facility is charged with the responsibility for the enforcement of these rules and regulations and shall cause these rules and regulations to be posted in a conspicuous place on the property.

    ....

    (13) Weapons and explosives. No person while on property shall carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, except for official purposes.
    ....
    Good luck finding them all.

    That's why I always start a challenge by asking under what authority the property is posted. In many cases local units [Va excepted, as they have a world-wide regulation] have assumed they have authority which they don't, or they have not followed their own agency's approval procedures for issuing local such Rules, Orders, or Directives.

    I don't try to prove them wrong. I put them in the position of them showing me that they are right.
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  13. #58
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    The VA is just parroting 930. The VA is a Government Agency. The head of the VA is a member of the Presidents Cabinet. 930 States:

    g) As used in this section:
    (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

    So All government agencies facilities also must go by the US Code below. They have to post them. If they are not posted it is a defense on being charged. Again I have never seen a VA Hospital or any Government building that was not posted.


    TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
    PART I - CRIMES
    CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS
    Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
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    Gary Slider

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  14. #59
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    Sorry Gary but I have to disagree -- big time.

    1) There's a big difference between:

    TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > 930
    Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
    ....
    g) As used in this section:
    (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
    [emphasis added]
    and

    Code of Federal Regulations]
    [Title 38, Volume 1]
    [Revised as of July 1, 2004]
    From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
    [CITE: 38CFR1.218]

    [Page 16-20]

    TITLE 38--PENSIONS, BONUSES, AND VETERANS' RELIEF

    CHAPTER I--DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

    PART 1_GENERAL PROVISIONS--Table of Contents

    Sec. 1.218 Security and law enforcement at VA facilities.

    (a) Authority and rules of conduct. Pursuant to 38 U.S.C. 901, the
    following rules and regulations apply at all property under the charge and control of VA
    ....

    (13) Weapons and explosives. No person while on property shall carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, except for official purposes.
    ....
    [emphasis added]
    Namely VA's Regs cover all property -- grounds, roads, parking lots, etc. -- where as TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > 930 only covers buildings.

    2) There is also a big difference between:

    TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > 930
    Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
    ....

    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.[emphasis added]
    and

    Code of Federal Regulations]
    [Title 38, Volume 1]
    [Revised as of July 1, 2004]
    From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
    [CITE: 38CFR1.218]

    [Page 16-20]

    TITLE 38--PENSIONS, BONUSES, AND VETERANS' RELIEF

    CHAPTER I--DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

    PART 1_GENERAL PROVISIONS--Table of Contents

    Sec. 1.218 Security and law enforcement at VA facilities.

    (a) ....

    The head of the facility is charged with the responsibility for the enforcement of these rules and regulations and shall cause these rules and regulations to be posted in a conspicuous place on the property.
    [emphasis added]
    Namely the VA Regs only require it be be posted in some [note the use of the singular "a"] conspicuous place somewhere on the property and they can and do convict w/o concern of if you ever saw/passed any posting or that you had any notice -- whereas TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > 930 all public entrances need to be posted and you cannot be convicted of an offense unless it so posted or they can prove you had actual notice.
    Last edited by DaveH; June 1st, 2010 at 11:02 AM. Reason: syntax and removed the quote from the post right above this one
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

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