Threatening dogs

Threatening dogs

This is a discussion on Threatening dogs within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hello everyone. I'm a new member here yet I've been a long time reader and hold a current concealed license. (around guns all my life) ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Threatening dogs

    Hello everyone. I'm a new member here yet I've been a long time reader and hold a current concealed license. (around guns all my life)

    I've recently had a hip replacement and have to walk several miles on a daily basis. I am also on blood thinners so I am what you would call a 'bleeder'. I carry a S&W M&P compact in 357Sig.

    I have read with interest the response from the recent post about dog attacks. Dog owners seem to feel that it's OK for a dog to charge you as long as he doesn't bite. After all, he is just doing his job. I take it as a personal assault and I believe every dog should be leased. A law that is rarely enforced.

    My biggest threat over the past few years living here in Clearwater Fl. has not been with humans. I have had three incidents (close calls) in the past two years with attack type dogs.(Boxer, Rottweiler, Pitbull) The Pitbull and Rotweiler were both similar incidents where there were young girls walking them on a leash and were being dragged by the dogs. Had they gotten loose I don't really know what would have happened as the dogs were barking and growling viciously. I do not believe these dogs had any good intent. I was prepared to take immediate action had they gotten loose.

    Here is the scenario as I see it. Had the dog charged me and I shot BEFORE he bit me the question would be asked..."how did you know the dog was in fact going to bite you?" or... "my dog barks loudly but never has bitten anyone,he is really a sweet dog." or..."Do you shoot at every dog that growls at you or approaches you?"

    My answer would be..."I feared for my life."

    Shooting a dog would put me as the bad guy unless the dog actually bit me. The 'bite' is absolute proof of the intent to do harm. Though many will still see you as a violent, pet killing bad guy (see story below).

    I feel especially vulnerable due to the fact I bleed so easily. I could hear a lawyer painting the picture of me being the bad guy... 'overly protective' or 'a severe over reaction due to my condition' and I can imagine witnesses saying the dog never bit anyone and is a very sweet and loving animal.

    My plan is as follows...I will use pepper spray first. If a second attack is coming I will shoot to kill. Could pepper spray make the animal more angry? I don't know.

    If I have my gun drawn after pepper spray and I don't need to shoot is there a fine or punishment for that? (brandishing a weapon)

    It is a shame that the most dangerous threat I encounter are peoples pets. In my life of 59 years I have fortunately never had a life threatening attack by another human. However, I have through the years had many close encounters with dogs and have been bitten several times. With the growing fear of terrorism, burglary, and home invasion many families in our neighborhood have gotten large aggressive dogs for protection. This has greatly increased the chance for an attack and is a very serious concern for me.

    The dog owners appear to be oblivious to the dangers. Heck,why should they worry, the dog is never threatening to the owner and as long as he threatens other strangers that's considered a good thing.

    A recent incident where two boxers got loose. The dog attacked the 6 year old girl in their front yard. The mother grabbed her 9mm Glock and let the dog have it. The dog lived. What amazed me the most is how many people in the neighborhood criticized the woman for shooting the animal and want to press charges against her. One called her a "gun toting whack job".

    I say...congratulations Mom. Nice shot. Too bad you didn't kill it so it can never attack again.

    Woman Shoots Dog That Attacked Daughter | NBC Los Angeles



    Any comments welcome.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Here is the scenario as I see it. Had the dog charged me and I shot BEFORE he bit me the question would be asked..."how did you know the dog was in fact going to bite you?" or... "my dog barks loudly but never has bitten anyone,he is really a sweet dog." or..."Do you shoot at every dog that growls at you or approaches you?"

    My answer would be..."I feared for my life."

    Would a reasonable man believe that a man running at him with a knife believe that the man would stop and just cuss him out. Not likely. I view the dog in that same light. With proper articulation of your condition and the circumstances you should be on solid ground.

    As to the OC further angering a dog, it is probably unlikely, but not impossible.

    As to the shooting you cited, the problem I see is that she shot the dog after her and her children were safely inside the house.

  3. #3
    Member Array BigRAM's Avatar
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    wow if i were in that case where is there was therating dog like a pitbull roitwiller or german shepard dog is runing at me and barking viscously i would yell at the dog say down boy or stop or something along the lines( while stepping back) if owner present ask owner to calm down his dog or i will with my 45 if he keeps coming at me then if the dog reaches me at arms length i would pull my weapon and shoot to kill.

  4. #4
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    In Ohio, I don't have ANY duty to let a dog bite me.

    As pointed out, it's like a human charging me with a knife or a club. There's no duty to let an assailant stab or bludgeon me.

    Put me in reasonable, imminent fear of life and limb (NOT just life), man or dog, and you're probably going to get shot.

    I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. Keep your dog under control, either on your property or on a leash and there won't be a REASON for me to shoot it. If you DON'T control your animals, you have ZERO right to shift risk onto unwilling third parties.

  5. #5
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    If a dog is running at one of my children (or me or my wife) and-

    A) it is too big for me to punt it 10 yards

    and

    B) I think it will attack them, then I am shooting the dog or otherwise attacking the dog

    and I will try to do it before that dog can get on my child
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  6. #6
    Member Array Passin' Through's Avatar
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    A thought that might leave you out of a civil trial is Hornet Spray. Sprays 20' is a foam so it sticks to their face. You could carry a can while walking. Isn't lethal...
    For a man interested only in passin' through, he suddenly found himself entangled in a deadly struggle….

    ad utrumque paratus

  7. #7
    Member Array BigRAM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passin' Through View Post
    A thought that might leave you out of a civil trial is Hornet Spray. Sprays 20' is a foam so it sticks to their face. You could carry a can while walking. Isn't lethal...
    good idea but what if the spary ends up killing or blinding the dog or human then you still may get a lawsuit.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Personally, I would shy away from the hornet spray. It has chemicals that can cause permenant damage. OC can be used at a threat level below lethal, but I would be hesitant to use the hornet spray at that lower level for the above reason.

  9. #9
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Here is the scenario as I see it. Had the dog charged me and I shot BEFORE he bit me the question would be asked..."how did you know the dog was in fact going to bite you?"
    I don't need to KNOW it. I just have to have a reasonable belief that it's about to happen.

    How do I know that the guy with the sawed off 12ga. who kicks in my door at 03:00am means to shoot me? I don't, and I don't need to. I just need a reasonable belief that it's about to happen. I don't need to let somebody blow my head off to confirm it.

    It's the reasonable man standard. Is it reasonable to believe that a large, powerful dog, charging at you while growling and barking WON'T bite you?

    The law requires you to be reasonable. Expecting you to read minds, whether they be of gunmen or dogs, isn't reasonable.

  10. #10
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passin' Through View Post
    A thought that might leave you out of a civil trial is Hornet Spray. Sprays 20' is a foam so it sticks to their face. You could carry a can while walking. Isn't lethal...
    Do you think that somebody who's stupid enough to both let his dog run free, AND to sue you for shooting it to prevent it from biting you, isn't stupid enough to sue you for blinding it, even temporarily?

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    I don't need to KNOW it. I just have to have a reasonable belief that it's about to happen.

    How do I know that the guy with the sawed off 12ga. who kicks in my door at 03:00am means to shoot me? I don't, and I don't need to. I just need a reasonable belief that it's about to happen. I don't need to let somebody blow my head off to confirm it.

    It's the reasonable man standard. Is it reasonable to believe that a large, powerful dog, charging at you while growling and barking WON'T bite you?

    The law requires you to be reasonable. Expecting you to read minds, whether they be of gunmen or dogs, isn't reasonable.
    Not sure if your comment was general or directed at me, in which case there may be some confusion. That statement was a quote, (maybe not defined well enough as such) of the OP to which I responded. Sorry for the confusion.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    I don't need to KNOW it. I just have to have a reasonable belief that it's about to happen.

    How do I know that the guy with the sawed off 12ga. who kicks in my door at 03:00am means to shoot me? I don't, and I don't need to. I just need a reasonable belief that it's about to happen. I don't need to let somebody blow my head off to confirm it.

    It's the reasonable man standard. Is it reasonable to believe that a large, powerful dog, charging at you while growling and barking WON'T bite you?

    The law requires you to be reasonable. Expecting you to read minds, whether they be of gunmen or dogs, isn't reasonable.
    This about covers it!
    Hiram25
    You can educate ignorance, you can't fix stupid
    Retired DE Trooper, SA XD40 SC, S&W 2" Airweight
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Array crue2009's Avatar
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    i'd think you'd exaust every non lethal option first before shooting a dog..that should be the absolute last resort in my opnion..

  14. #14
    Member Array mirage2521's Avatar
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    For more informed Florida specific answers try asking your question here

    Florida Concealed Carry Forum

    There are a couple of attorneys on there who specialize in self-defense and concealed carry issues.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  15. #15
    Member Array bakes's Avatar
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    I heard one the other day...

    A dog with prior tresspassing issues and attacking of other dog issues came into a guys yard and started attacking his dog (again).

    This guy goes out in his yard and starts hitting the aggressor dog with a ball bat.

    This happens in front of the the neighbor who the aggressor dog belongs to and lots of children.

    He doesn't kill the dog. (Neighbor comes and gets knocked out dog)

    All neighbors are mad at him for protecting his dog as well as sheriff states your not allowed to do that.

    Neither neighbor presses charges.

    I think he was justified on his own property to stop the attack, regardless of children watching or not.

    I most certainly would defend myself against a dog that I believed was going to cause me or my family harm in regards to the case above.

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