Help Defend CC

Help Defend CC

This is a discussion on Help Defend CC within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Our local anti-gun newspaper columnist is asking for examples on his blog where concealed carry permit holders have thwarted mass killings. I've searched and posted ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Help Defend CC

    Our local anti-gun newspaper columnist is asking for examples on his blog where concealed carry permit holders have thwarted mass killings. I've searched and posted 9 stories myself. I need you guys to help me inundate his blog with stories (or summaries of stories). Here's the link, please post in the blog comments to this article:

    Let’s prove those Violence Policy Center rascals wrong! | Dan Casey's blog: Roanoke Times metro columnist writes what's on his mind - Roanoke.com

    He has given a timeframe since 2007, but he regularly draws on stories dating back to 1997 in his efforts to paint concealed carriers in a very negative light. I have pointed that out to him already, so I'm using his own standard of relevance of 1997.

    Thanks guys, we need all of the stories we can get. Please glance at the ones already posted so we don't get repeats. Thanks!!!
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


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    Member Array charlie1826's Avatar
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    Just commented

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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    I submitted one.

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    That blog is slow to update, I accidentally double posted because I didn't see it come up after I submitted it. O-well

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    Member Array JPCleary's Avatar
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    ...just commented.

    Isn't the formula, "Here are some crimes committed by CWP holders, so show me some examples of crime being prevented by CWP holders" inherently flawed?

    How about the guy who takes a gun to a crowded place intent on killing people only to lose his nerve as a result of recognizing that he lives in a right to carry state and that he stands a very good chance of dying quickly, because undoubtedly at least one of these people has a gun? How would you know that the shall issue law and concealed carry concept prevented the mass murder that would have taken place? You wouldn't. And it stands to reason that this has happened before.

    Which is a good segue into my next point that I believe speaks to another flaw to the formula. Criminals recognize that getting shot sucks, so when going on their shooting rampages, they often target our super-safe gun free zones. So how many of these mass murders that have taken place in hospitals, schools, etc. would have been prevented by a CWP holder, but wasn't because that CWP holder is a law abiding citizen and abided by the gun control laws you so champion, and thus would have been an example to cite here but now is not. Luby's comes to mind... Suzanna Hupp's gun was out in the car in the parking lot.

    Comment by JPC — June 13, 2010 @ 8:44 am

    I left out another point I meant to make....

    The premise of your question that includes, "...that have been stopped by a permit-carrying hero" assumes that permit holders carry so that they can stop mass shootings.

    Most don't. Most carry to protect themselves and their families and would not choose to wade into a screaming, rushing crowd of people while gunning for the perpetrator, when they would be better off getting themselves and their family to cover in a defensible position, calling 911 and being a good witness.

    We as permit holders are not police officers, superheroes or your volunteer unpaid bodyguards. We have no obligation to save you when some crazed lunatic comes into the mall and decides to make you his first of many victims that day. It's your responsibility to protect yourself and your family. Or you could rely on local law enforcement to do that for you. Good luck with that, by the way.

    So your entire premise that relies on the supposition that all permit holders aspire to be, or are required to be, mass shooting heroes, is fallacious to begin with.

    Comment by JPC — June 13, 2010 @ 8:59 am
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    You need to explain that CC SD is not meant to thwart "mass" killings. It's meant to thwart individual killings. Otherwise, we'd be CCing assault weapons that are more capable.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Is it the writer's contention that it doesn't count if you stop a SINGLE murder on a particular day? How about HIS?

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    Wow this Dan Casey guy is a real tool. It looks like it doesn't matter how many examples you pull, his mind is made up.

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Great posts guys, I've been reading through them this morning. Please keep up the good work and let's keep this clown on his toes. The more the merrier.
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  10. #10
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    Wow this Dan Casey guy is a real tool. It looks like it doesn't matter how many examples you pull, his mind is made up.
    Yep, that's a given. He absolutely despises concealed carry by citizens and has stated such many times. I argue with this guy about firearms every week to no end and regardless of how many independent statistics you lay out there, he will never change his mind. My goal is to put enough good information out there that the readers are able to sift through his kool-aid drinking dribble and see the true facts.

    He always has "honest errors" in his columns regarding guns, and it's funny they always seem to be towards the point he's trying to make. I call him on them every time and he has to publish a correction.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCleary View Post
    . . . . (with some ommissions)

    Most don't. Most carry to protect themselves and their families and would not choose to wade into a screaming, rushing crowd of people while gunning for the perpetrator, when they would be better off getting themselves and their family to cover in a defensible position, calling 911 and being a good witness.

    We as permit holders are not police officers, superheroes or your volunteer unpaid bodyguards. We have no obligation to save you when some crazed lunatic comes into the mall and decides to make you his first of many victims that day. It's your responsibility to protect yourself and your family. Or you could rely on local law enforcement to do that for you. Good luck with that, by the way.

    So your entire premise that relies on the supposition that all permit holders aspire to be, or are required to be, mass shooting heroes, is fallacious to begin with.

    Comment by JPC June 13, 2010 @ 8:59 am
    +++101 . . elloquently says it all! Well done.
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

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    Member Array JPCleary's Avatar
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    A little more of the back and forth...

    JPC,

    In that case, I would adopt Tom's tactic and urge you to consider the "good news" the media ignores about the mass shootings that DON'T occur in gun-free zones.

    Because as we both know, and is easily proven, there are many, many, many more gun free zones where mass shootings NEVER happen than where they do happen.

    Comment by Dan Casey June 13, 2010 @ 9:31 am
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    Member Array JPCleary's Avatar
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    Mr. Casey,

    I agree. But doesn't that then solidify the point that the puzzle you present is flawed to begin with?

    I'm also curious to hear your response in regards to my second post.

    Comment by JPC June 13, 2010 @ 9:37 am
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    Member Array JPCleary's Avatar
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    JPC,

    I disagree with your statement that the premise of the question assumes permit holders carry to prevent mass shootings.

    We know there are permit holders who commit mass shootings. The question is, are their permit holders who prevent them, or stop them?

    Yes or no? (if yes, then please give me the details). It in no way assumes for those permit holders any reason why they would be carrying them their weapons.

    Comment by Dan Casey June 13, 2010 @ 9:48 am
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    Member Array JPCleary's Avatar
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    Mr. Casey,

    I, of course, allow for the possibility that I may just be confused...certainly has happened before. And we all know that things get lost in text...but,

    You mean to tell me that the following statement...

    "So I am seeking to add that balance here. The only problem is, I don't know of any shooting rampages since May 2007 that have been stopped by a permit-carrying hero."

    ...does not rely on the supposition that in order to add balance to the VPC's latest report, one must find examples of permit holders who have thwarted mass shootings?

    And what if I do have examples of permit holders thwarting mass shootings? Am I to understand that if I bring you 16 examples of "permit-carrying heroes" stopping shooting rampages to balance out the 16 examples of permit holders committing mass shootings you will rescind your position that gun control is the answer? (That last part was an assumption on my part. Feel free to correct me, if your position differs)

    And what is the correlation between permit holders who have committed mass shooting and permit holders who have prevented mass shootings, anyway?

    We, the defensive carry community, the pro 2A community, the loony gun nut community, however you want to refer to "us"...believe in the LAW ABIDING citizens right to bear arms as a means to DEFEND themselves. The moment anyone, permit holder or otherwise, pulls out a gun and OFFENSIVELY starts shooting innocent people...they are a criminal. (Please excuse the caps...not yelling...I just don't have any way to underline, italicize, or otherwise provide emphasis)

    Comment by JPC June 13, 2010 @ 10:47 am
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