June 19th, 2010 12:58 PM
Trying to help a friend make the right choice
Hi everyone. I just made an account on this forum specifically to ask this question.
One of my closest friends is seriously considering trying to get a ccw. The problem is he's bipolar. His family is overprotective of him because of his condition and alot of our mutual friends think he is a little crazy because they know about his condition so I think I am the only person he has confided this in. I've know him for years and he is pretty stable even before he went on medication. However I know he has been to the hospital before. So I'm very worried about him carrying a gun around. I looked up "bipolar cww" on google and found mixed answers about whether or not he can get one. One person who seemed more knowledgeable about the topic (on yahoo answers) said that there is a question he will have to answer about whether he has been involuntarily admitted to the hospital before. I told him about this and he told me "they don't need to know about that"...
I don't know if it was actually involuntary or not, but should I let this thing play out IE: they will find out about his hospitalization anyway or do I need to confront him about this and make sure he makes the right decision? I am trying to be the loyal friend here and back him up 100% I just don't think I can do it this time.
We live in michigan. Thanks for your advice and please no derogatory comments. He's a very responsible person and I'm just not sure he has fully considered this situation.
June 19th, 2010 01:03 PM
I should also add that he works out regularly, has practiced martial arts since he was young, and carries a knife sometimes. And to my knowledge he has never had any problems with fights, aggressiveness, or anything like that.
My problem here is that a gun is on a whole higher level. It's so simple to just pull a trigger and I don't want one of my best friends doing something he can't take back even if there is just a tiny chance of that happening.
June 19th, 2010 01:06 PM
"When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the
scabbard." -General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson
June 19th, 2010 01:08 PM
I would tell him he has got to be honest on the application. They will find out when they do the checks. Then he would be found out to be a liar as well. He may not apply.
Just be upfront and honest with him.
June 19th, 2010 01:15 PM
When I got mine they actually checked the local psych wards to see if my name came up. I'm in NC. Not sure how far they would take it, but it's possible. Not sure if there is a legal consequence for lying either. That said, he needs to be honest about it.
I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!
"Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"
June 19th, 2010 01:17 PM
thanks ccman. And yeah no I'm not referring to myself I'm too broke to be investing in anything but college right now :) Although I do enjoy playing with my airsoft gun sometimes!
June 19th, 2010 01:30 PM
His hospitalization was most likely paid for by insurance, it will be on his MIB (medical information bureau) and should red flag him when the background checks are made. Signing the 4473 form with false information may subject him to 10 yrs and $250k fine, signing the ccw form will subject him to incarceration by whatever state the license is for. If he's planning/willing to commit a felony, he shouldn't be carrying a gun. He may have opened you up for hassle/prosecution by telling you of a crime he intends to commit.
June 19th, 2010 01:35 PM
wow I'm glad I stayed online, thank you for responding so quickly. I appreciate your candor. There's no way I'm letting either of us get in trouble. And no I don't think he's going to be too interested in committing a felony anyway.
June 19th, 2010 01:47 PM
On top of the legal ramifications, there are the moral implications. My mother is Bi-Polar. She would go years without incident and then one day, the wind blew from the wrong direction, someone said the wrong thing and she had a nervous breakdown which resulted in a scar on her wrist. I'm not implying that your friens is suicidal, or ever would be, but he has been diagnosed with a disease that is known to lead to irrational behavior, regardless of history.
Appeal to him as a friend, make it clear that you support him but it would hurt you irreparibly if anything happened to him. Hopefully, you will be able to get through to him.
"You will not rise to the occasion and you will not default to your level of training. You WILL ONLY default to the level of training you have mastered."
-Ruger P345; LCP
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June 19th, 2010 05:33 PM
Thanks again. I'll check this thread for the next couple days but I have a handle on the situation.
June 19th, 2010 05:45 PM
I was going to ask, can he successfully complete a 4473 application in terms of mental health/medication??
Lying on an the 4473 or CCW application has serious criminal consequences. If he doesn't consider the consequences of lying on paperwork, what makes him a responsible gun owner?
Secondly, I would hate to see him get a permit, "have a bad day" and start shooting up a daycare because he forgot his meds that day (or some other mental anguish that non-bi-polar people deal with every day that he cannot handle). Headline: "Permit-holder kills 13 in random shooting; did not have meds--Obamacare says "slipped through cracks"--all gunowners subject to mental screening"
- know the difference
is a fancy name for crappy fighter
You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know
June 19th, 2010 05:56 PM
I've dealt with many bi-polars, including my daughter-in law. Does or has your friend ever missed taking his medication? There are a few of the meds that "my" prevent him from getting a permit. (Not sure about that though). I don't know exactly which ones, if any. As mentioned, it will show up in a background check. Lithium and Depocote are a couple of the more common, but there are several that are used.
June 19th, 2010 06:20 PM
great question and Kudos to you for being a good friend...
I know every state has different standards when it comes to CCW permits, and some are, in my opinion, WAY too easy when issuing permits. Many states do not conduct thorough background checks, and some do not even require that the weapon be fired. I would HOPE that someone taking meds for any sort of mental condition would be flagged, but a call to any LEO org might answer the medical history/medicinal disqualifiers for you.
And the other posters are correct in the penalties for falsifying the application, which might only be found if the permit issued is ever involved in an event...in which case you can expect severe penalties, especially if the applicant names you as someone who knew about his plans beforehand.
Be a better friend and discourage him, in writing (maybe an email) so you have some proof in case he goes ahead with his plan AGAINST your suggestions. It sounds like you already have reservations anyway...and you sound like you know him pretty well.
June 20th, 2010 01:56 AM
If you want to back your friend up 100% then tell him DO NOT LIE no matter what that guy says on Yahoo Answers! Have him disclose everything to everyone who needs to know in the process. Like stated above, rules vary from state to state and let the professionals who know the law and know the medical condition and medication handle the process. A good friend that you seem to be trying to be will also have to deal with anything bad that could possibly come out of this situation. By the way, I really doubt that the guy on Yahoo Answers is going to get the "Best Answer" vote.
Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME
Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.
June 20th, 2010 02:04 AM
Short answer: he'll need to decide what he's able to handle, and whether the responsibility to control his actions and behavior is something well within his ability to manage.
Originally Posted by joshruss
Well, if by "bipolar" you mean he has shown he can smack himself against the end of one extreme and then find himself quickly smacking himself at the other extreme, then I'd say we all know what his decision should be.
If OTOH you mean he has mood swings, then he'll need to decide how large those are, and he'll need to decide whether finding himself having engaged in self defense or the defense of others whether it would be such a detriment as to nail his legal "coffin" shut before the case ever really got started.
Some would argue: better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
It's tough enough to carry a lethal weapon with the minefield the legal system strives so hard to lay before us. Being truly bipolar to the point of extreme swings in behavior, a person's going to have a very difficult time claiming necessity and justification if it comes to needing to defend.
It's his choice. The perceived condition might make things tougher, legally speaking. But not taking all of the various steps in a defensive posture might well result in his inability to survive a situation. His call, depending on what he's able to manage. This is America, after all. So long as he's not in a state of mass denial about defense (aka, a shall issue state), then I don't see why he wouldn't acquire the license and the training, assuming he's not on the extreme end of the scales.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
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