Disarmed by police; legal? - Page 4

Disarmed by police; legal?

This is a discussion on Disarmed by police; legal? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mprp If an officer asks to look in your car and you are all in the green, there should be no reason ...

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Thread: Disarmed by police; legal?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    If an officer asks to look in your car and you are all in the green, there should be no reason to say "No" anyways. I'm sure that it's legal everywhere for an officer to make sure that the scene is safe for him, (expect the unexpected) and that way, he knows that you and him will both go home after the stop. Personally? I would / will let an officer look at whatever he wants and comply with requests. If he wants to look in your car, the reason is most likely due to either you acting suspicious or you're in an area where drugs have been a problem. I figure that saying yes and chit-chatting for about 5 minutes beats the heck out of waiting for 30 minutes for the K9 unit to show up by saying no.

    JMO
    No way would I ever agree to a search of my vehicle. If they have to ask, they don’t have probable cause and it IS a fishing expedition! Example: You may not realize the prescription medication you take may result in confiscation or more. As a former LEO, I highly recommend you retain your rights, and to hell with that aged old line from the officer… 'Only a guilty person, or someone that has something to hide would say no'.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
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  2. #47
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, I do see everyone's point here saying that they would not voluntarily let LE search their vehicle for fear of a bad experience. However, I didn't invision sitting for two hours on the side of the highway, waiting for Officer Goodwrench to get done disassembling my vehicle either. I'm sure there are those situations out there and that's unfortunate. I guess in this instance, waiting 30 minutes for the K9 to arrive is better than the 2 hour ransack. Maybe this goes a little bit beyond the scope of the OP's question but could be blended together in a traffic stop I guess. Seems that my view on this matter isn't really all that popular here I see but that's ok. Makes you think though that if a somewhat "anti" attitude LEO that would disassemble your firearm in a stop would be the same one that would want to pillage through your car. All I can say is that I've had nothing but great experiences with LE and I'm in my 40's now. (Only like 3 times for traffic stuff and none for moving violations) I'm hoping that the next 40 will be just as smooth!

    And BTW Bark'n, whatever they find in my vehicle would not result in a life sentence...I would be back some day to deal with my 17 yo son's pot.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post

    And BTW Bark'n, whatever they find in my vehicle would not result in a life sentence...I would be back some day to deal with my 17 yo son's pot.
    True That!

    But what about that bloody machete and the bag of lime in the trunk? j/k
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Another story from the LEO that assisted with my CCP class. He came up on another officer in a traffic stop. So he decided to stop and see if everything was OK. As he rounded the car he saw the other officer and the motorist. The motorist was drawing his handgun from his holster. The LEO (in the class) immediately drew and instructed the motorist to drop the weapon. He had no idea that the first officer had instructed the motorist to hand him his CC'd weapon! Now if that's not a situation that could go bad in a hurry. That's another reason I much prefer that my weapons stays where it is if I have any say. I don't want to be seen drawing a firearm around an officer.

    On another note, why would an officer instruct someone to pull the weapon and give it to them? If you trust them enough to pull a loaded weapon out while yours is holstered, why can't you trust them to keep it on body? Just does not make good sense when they do it that way.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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  5. #50
    Member Array Zach and Holly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    To my knowledge, there has been only one thread (that I remember) that says that this supposedly happened. I am not sure I believe it. There's a lot of dubious claims posted here.


    I have a friend who tells me his father is an officer and will strip the firearm and place it in the trunk. He's a P.I now, but this is what he tells me was his regular practice during a stop. Perhaps he will make a post about it as he is on the forum.

    The fact that an officer can disarm you when a stop has nothing to do with firearms is outrageous.
    It is utterly illogical to believe that passing laws to reduce gun violence will be successful when those who are commiting the gun violence do not obey the law.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach and Holly View Post
    I have a friend who tells me his father is an officer and will strip the firearm and place it in the trunk. He's a P.I now, but this is what he tells me was his regular practice during a stop. Perhaps he will make a post about it as he is on the forum.

    The fact that an officer can disarm you when a stop has nothing to do with firearms is outrageous.
    That is where I chime in.

    My dad was in patrol untill 97 before making detective. Chl law passed in 96 in texas. he only made contact with one or two CHL holders during that short time between patrol and detective and did do as above mentioned.

    I believe part of his decision to do so came from ordinary citizens carrying being a new thing, that officers were simply not used to.

  7. #52
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    I would like to bring up a couple of points that might answer some questions that have been brought up on here. There will be some variance in state to state but most will fit under these guidlines.

    A traffic stop is in fact a non custodial arrest. The officer simply is allowing you to sign the ticket, a promise to appear in court, and let you leave instead of taking you to jail to post bond. In some states if you are not local you must post a bond before you leave or sit in jail until you do. So yes you are technically under arrest on a traffic stop.

    Case law dictates that the reasonable time on a traffic stop for an officer to detain you is 15 minutes. If he has not established evidence of a crime to warrant further detaining you he lets you go.
    Now this has a couple of exceptions. Traffic accidents the officer can take pretty much all the time he needs to investigate an accident obviously the more serious the accident the longer he will take.
    Secondly if he has reason to believe there are drugs in the car he can detain you longer while he waits on a K9. I am not aware of a set time but the unofficial standard we went by was 30 minutes.

    In regards to searching vehicles there is a specific exception to them under the statutes of search and seizure because they are mobile or can be moved. Just google it to get the whole story.
    Whatever an officer finds with his senses can lead to a search. He smells marijuana in the car, he sees and open container of alcohol, you tell him you are armed. This does not mean he has to disarm you, clear the weapon or disassemble it prior to giving it back to you it is whatever makes him feel comfortable.

    Terry v. Ohio did set the standard but it set the standard for reasonable suspicition not probable cause. The standards for reasonable suspicition are much less than those for probable cause. The officer just has to suspect a person has committed, will commit, or is about to commit a crime. Does the diarming of a CCW holder fit under this, probably not it simply comes down to an officer safety issue and what he/she feels comfortable with.
    Anyways hope this helped google has the answers in details it makes for some pretty good reading.
    Last edited by tacman605; June 28th, 2010 at 06:17 PM.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array nightsonge's Avatar
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    Wondering if anyone has any opinions regarding the Oklahoma laws I posted on page 2?
    Just curious mind, as I said, If an officer wishes to disarm me at a traffic stop I'll politely comply, I would however, based on my reading of the pertinant law, complain to his superiors.
    A 1911 is Not an obsession, it's simply a recognition that it's THE Gun. :-) All others are runner ups. And hey, if all else fails, aim for the nose and fling it to knock out your foe. Let's see y'all do that with a kel-Tec. ;-)

  9. #54
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    Not sure why some are concerned if there is proper authority at the state level.

    This matter has been settled ad nauseum by the SCOTUS. Whether you agree with it or not, LE has the authority to take your weapon from you during a stop and all he / she needs is reasonable suspicion.

  10. #55
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    OP was about surrendering weapon for duration of stop, so I am not going into subsequent search of car. SCOTUS prevails in this case. But reason also prevails. I am not an LEO but I have extensive Jury experience (not good at coming up with excuses!) and I have learned that an LEO is going to be assumed legal in just about anything short of physical violence he does on the scene. You have to prove otherwise in a court of law. If you refuse any process he is probably going to list it as "belligerence" and you just gave him "just cause." Again you may get a ruling different in a court of law later, but on the scene he is in the right.

    It is similar to the military "lawful order" trap.

    1. You can't question the authority of the officer, it is to be assumed.(LEO is in uniform and carrying a badge.)

    2. The burden of proof is on you to later prove the order was "unlawful" (You have to prove violation of "due process.")

    Getting smart mouthed or obstructing an officer (whether you are right or wrong) ranks right up there in the top of the most stupid things to do list. You are about to meet some really interesting people in a place you don't really want to be.

    BTW my experience has been that urban judges and juries will consider the citizen's arguments while rural judges are going with the LEO 100%. Also, I don't know a country on the Earth where this isn't true. It is part of the Human Condition.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  11. #56
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    One thing to keep in mind about this topic: Someone impersonating an officer. It might not be a common occurrence, but it has happened in my area. It is rather easy for someone to obtain a flashing light and badge, which is all that is needed for someone to look like an undercover officer. (a uniform is easy to obtain also) Sure, most of us think we would never fall for this, but if someone looking like a LEO (especially in a remote area) asks for your weapon you don't have a lot of time to call in and verify his ID. It has the potential to be a very bad situation, because we are taught to fully comply with LEOs. This might sound like a rare scenario, but encounters with BGs are usually rare anyway. This topic might have been covered in a thread already, or if not, might be a good topic for a new thread...

  12. #57
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    Important point: The OP did not say whether the disarm is temporary or not. I would comply with handing over my weapon(s) during the time I am being detained. I would not be ok with an officer taking my weapon(s) away from me after the incident is over, if I am not guilty of anything more than a traffic violation, etc. The scenario described actually sounds more like a permanent disarm because it says "taking weapon away" and not just simply: "holding on to the weapon" temporarily.
    Last edited by romansten9; June 28th, 2010 at 06:16 PM. Reason: fixed error

  13. #58
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jweiss View Post
    My guess is they can take pretty much anything away that they want to.
    Forget the law. At a traffic stop an officer can and will do whatever he wants, ranging from chatting about guns to killing you.
    The law comes in later, and will always favor the LEO. Better keep your cool and not pay the price.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    Speaking only for NC, yes, it's legal for them to disarm you.

    Did you see the Mr. Bow Tie video in your CHP class? If so and if you managed to stay awake, he covered that point.
    As I recall from my class, the requirement in NC is that the officer return your firearm to you in the condition in which it was received.

    That being said, our instructor also made a very good point.
    If the officer does take your weapon for the duration of your interaction and unloads it, he (and I concur) would not want an officer to attempt to reload my weapon as he may not be familiar with the correct handling procedures for my weapon.

    He also said that in that case, what he does and recommends is to very politely request that the officer allow you to leave your weapon holstered as either of you drawing it out simply adds the possibility of accidental discharge or other safety concerns to the situation.

    What he told us was that former students that he has spoken with have related that only one community in our area seems to have officers that wish to view or handle citizens' weapons. The rest are being reported to him as simply inquiring where the weapon is and directing the person to please keep their hands away from that area.

    Your milage may vary.

    Ruffinit
    It is the aberration of statistics that you have to watch out for.

    Remember: it isn't the SECOND person something happens to that is surprised by it.

  15. #60
    Member Array ruffinit's Avatar
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    The other point I forgot to mention is that the issue of probable cause for a search was covered in our class also. Per NC law, the fact that you disclose that you are carrying a lawfully concealed handgun IS NOT probable cause for an LEO to search your vehicle.

    Ruffinit
    It is the aberration of statistics that you have to watch out for.

    Remember: it isn't the SECOND person something happens to that is surprised by it.

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