Did my CPL class stink?
This is a discussion on Did my CPL class stink? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I certainly think so, but I'd like to get a consensus.
I'm a newbie/lurker on this site. The info here is incredible, and ...
June 29th, 2010 04:26 PM
Did my CPL class stink?
I certainly think so, but I'd like to get a consensus.
I'm a newbie/lurker on this site. The info here is incredible, and I'm just plain ol impressed with the quality of your posts & comments all over this forum. I'm glad to jump aboard.
I just took my CPL class and logged my application & prints into the county queue (!!!). I'm rather bothered about the class, and here's how it went...
Instructor #1 - retired/part-time LEO of some sort doing detective work
Instructor #2 - retired quiet guy doing part-time firearm training for LEOs.
8AM to 11:30AM
Aside from filling out forms and adding our names to various lists, Instructor #1 lead us through 3 hours of Powerpoint slides. Reading the bullet points and making comments about each. First explaining old common-law, then explaining new laws that were an attempt to mesh with the old common law. I was very attentive, wanting to gobble all this up and walk out much smarter. However, it became so confusing that I now am very confused on when I can shoot. He did make it Very clear that only when there's a clear possibility of
2. great bodily harm (bones sticking out)
3. rape (1st or 3rd degree)
Other than that...its very foggy to me. Glad I got the NRA book to take home & plan on studying it.
Are 3 hours of very boring Powerpoint slides common?
12:30PM - 1PM
Finished up Powerpoint slides after explaining self defense in the home - clear as mud. Then an explanation of different types of ammo and how they are made (i did like that part).
1PM - 2PM
Instructor #2 sat quietly up front in the corner and muttered old police stories. "some kid got dad's gun and shot his friend", etc. Once in a while he'd get excited & jump up to act out something - using profanity to keep it authentic. <Yawn>
2PM - 3:30PM
Instructor #1 pulls out a 2' x 6' black plastic case.
Sets it on the front table & opens it up so we can't see what's in it.
He removes a 2-shot .22 the size of a Zippo, brags about it, all the while I'm thinking: "dude, don't even think about passing guns throughout the 20-person class today!". But on it comes...he hands it to the closest person to pass around. He then pulls out small revolvers, explaining the story behind each - some old Russian antiques or whatever - and passes em out. Next come the .357s, then the .45 elephant-guns. NEXT come the tiny autos...then the Glocks, Sigs, Walthers, Berettas...you get the picture. 2 dozen guns in all, with 20 students simultaneously handling different guns, the room full of clicking sounds from all the dry-firing going on, pointing the barrel wherever they choose, etc. (Nahh, wasn't feeling too safe during that.)
What in the HECK does this guy's gun collection have to do with a CPL?
3:30PM - 4PM
Short explanation on how the range time will be organized. We'll be shooting 50rds in their supplied Ruger Mark III .22s. (at least this saved me $50 in ammo).
4PM - 5:30PM
Range time. 4 groups of 5 people at the line, each shooting 5 mags at one spot on the target at about 9 feet. Wow.
We then got our certs and went home.
Is that it? Is that how most CPL classes go? I'm very curious to get your opinion, esp from you instructors. In the end I'm very happy to have my certificate, learned a few things, and had a...uhhh....new experience. But I definitely will be taking some reputable SD courses this fall/winter and ongoing.
Thanks for reading.
June 29th, 2010 04:32 PM
then the .45 elephant-guns.
gives you an idea of all the type of firearms that are out there and allows you to familiarize yourself with them and their feel.
What in the HECK does this guy's gun collection have to do with a CPL?
June 29th, 2010 04:38 PM
Sounds about like mine really, except without the passing around of weapons. We did have decent discussion on when we can and can't shoot, I came out pretty clear on what is and isn't legal, although I do disagree with how strict it is. The shooting time was about the same in mine. Really served no purpose except to prove that one can handle a firearm safely.
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June 29th, 2010 04:54 PM
An interesting thing that happened in my class was the instructor had a revolver and a pistol and he had us pass both of those around the class. Once we had passed those around (nobody dry-firing, which made me happy), the instructor took out an armed mouse trap and handed that around. Everyone, including me, was much more careful with the mouse trap then we were with the firearms.
Now, most of the people in the class did check to make sure both firearms were unloaded, even though the guy before had done the same exact thing. I'm sure the instructor noticed., but I got the point he was trying to make. A "loaded" mouse trap won't kill you if it "went off". For most, it wouldn't even really do much other than break skin and hurt, no permanent damage. A ND with a firearm, on the other hand, would do significant damage to whatever it hit. If we truly are treating every firearm as if it was loaded, we should have been just as careful as we were with the mouse trap.
June 29th, 2010 05:02 PM
Clever instructor...he definitely made his point.
Originally Posted by Tye_Defender
The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
June 29th, 2010 05:02 PM
Holy crap! Those two instructors need to have their heads examined. You DO NOT pass around firearms IN MASS to your class. That's just asking for trouble. I'm sure we'll be reading about these two idiots in a newspaper someday. What is the first rule of proper gun handling, Mr. Instructor? Oh, yes...Always treat the gun AS IF IT WERE LOADED!!! What a couple of morons.
The rest of the class sounds about right. Gun range, certificates, blah, blah. It's up to you to get the proper training. Take an advanced combat pistol class from a certified gun school, obviously not from the above two brainyacks. The gun school will charge you more than the CCW class did, but it is well worth it and will give you the mental tools to properly carry and deploy your weapon.
The one I attended was the Defensive Shooting Academy in Sand Springs, Oklahoma. I've attached a link The Defensive Shooting Academy of Tulsa Homepage to their website.
I know you probably can't attend a class there, but the website will give you an idea of what is involved in these type of classes and how much they cost. I'm sure there are similar schools in Michigan. Please check them out. You won't be sorry. Be safe.
June 29th, 2010 05:12 PM
Man I dunno. All my instructors really hammered on when deadly force is justified and when it is not. That and I read the Texas penal code cover to cover a couple times. Can you just read your state's penal code to get what might not have been made clear and any questions you have I am sure someone here from your state can help clear anything else up for you.
"He who does not punish evil commands it to be done." - Leonardo da Vinci
June 29th, 2010 05:27 PM
Not impressive. I've been a Texas Instructor since 1995. The OP's described class would never pass muster under the Texas statute. The safety-related nightmare is bad enough, but conveying a mixture of confusion and downright incorrect information about laws related to the use of deadly force is inexcusable. Having said that, I'm really a proponent of the Vermont approach, odd as that may sound, coming from an instructor. However, if there is going to be a requirement for a class, it should be done right. I feel like I have some obligation, in the very limited time allowed, to help my students make themselves and those around them safer by imparting what I teach. After all, that's what carrying a means of deadly force is all about, right? It does not sound much like that was accomplished.
By the way, .45 handguns are not "elephant guns." The one on my hip today seems adequate for shooting people, but I'd not hunt elephants with it, or lions, tigers or bears.
June 29th, 2010 05:32 PM
Yes, my class sucked but it made me realize that I had a lot to learn and the only one that could make me better and smarter was me.
The class is like any course or school that you go to, it can only give you the basics. It is up to you whether you become just someone who made it through the class and gets to carry a gun or you can look at it like a life long process where each day is a learning experience.
June 29th, 2010 05:59 PM
Welcome to the forums...
Yes, There's a TREMENDOUS amount of info here... and there's some of us that're smart mouthed, some that act like they wannabe cops, some that are LEOs, some that are vets... and from all over the country, to boot... It's a great place.
That said, the onus is on you.. get knowledable about your state's laws... check Handgunlaw.us (link at the top of this forum)... And if you want a quick read, I can STRONGLY suggest:
In the Gravest Extreme by Masaad Ayoob. If you don't have the 12 bux to spare... Get a library card, ask somebody there about inter-library loan if they don't have their own copy.
It will tell you to know your laws... but it also gives you a lot of mini scenarios to think about.... like: at what point does a BG cease to be a threat.... What can you do with your gun at that point? and it's a quick read... so read it twice..
Now, you get to start your holster collection... what works what doesn't.. and the ones that don't go in a special box or drawer...
2 things... don't buy a badge for your CWP... And don't start building a bat cave.
June 29th, 2010 06:02 PM
My class was in the military, and they too can manage to bore you to tears. But on their behalf, they have to treat everyone as if they'd never seen a live firearm, much less held or fired one. And there's always one "I'm more important than anyone here" instructor.
Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
June 29th, 2010 06:16 PM
Welcome to the forum, your class seems to be a little light in the law portion. Being from michigan, here is a site that may be of some help.
MCRGO - Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners
Don"t let stupid be your skill set....
Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......
June 29th, 2010 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Shrunken
NRA Endowment Member
GOA Life Member
July 3rd, 2010 10:15 AM
Sometimes it is the way we VIEW things. Apparently, those Instructors may have spent too much time explaining how important THEY were, while showing off their "toys".
Guns are NOT toys and were never meant to be. Their purpose is very clear to most CWP holders. The TV and COPS shows have glorified them.
If you were a little bit more experienced with firearms than your fellow student, I can see how it may have been boring. I explain this to my students. Be patient....you MAY actually learn something you did not know.
Most instruction is geared to the student who is least experienced. IF the Instructor properly CLEARED the firearms...and TAUGHT each student to CLEAR it when it was handed to him..a good teaching point, coupled with NO LIVE AMMUNITION in the classroom.
SLED Certified CWP Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, Range Safety Officer, NRA Recruiter, Affiliate Instructor Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, member NRA,USCCA,GOA,GrassRootsSC.
July 3rd, 2010 11:17 AM
I can say I have had several great instructors.
It sounds like your instructors were going thru the actions just to get it done.
Look for some additional training. It may cost more but may save you alot.
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