Movement

This is a discussion on Movement within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I posted this in the Tactical Training section, it got very few views. Maybe it will do a little better here. ******************************************* In the world ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Fluid Situational Response

    I posted this in the Tactical Training section, it got very few views. Maybe it will do a little better here.
    *******************************************

    In the world of the gun there are two types of responses to a life threatening event. The first and most popular is the conditioned response. A few examples of conditioned responses would be stand and deliver, the controlled pair, and to always make use of your sights. These are responses that we train into ourselves with the hope that when the SHTF we will default to our training and this programming will save the day.

    While I was learning the Modern Techniques, (MT) I constantly questioned the logic behind many of the conditioned responses. To me, there was very little common sense attached to these conditioned responses. Even as a newbie I knew that I would never fight in this manner. It went away from the logic of all of my past experiences. As I trained and trained in the MT, I always held on to the realization the MT's were just going to be a foundation, a foundation that I built my fighting style on top of.

    As I progressed, I began to incorporate what I thought a common sense fighting style would entail. I began to seek out people that thought as I did. My observations were confirmed again and again by highly respected "been there done that" guys, most notably a Federal Agent that went under the handle 7677.He would write posts of his real world experience that coincided with my thoughts and observations As my suspicions were verified, my training progressed into an area that very few people have explored. I began to embrace the concept of natural human response.

    As I participated in and witnessed FOF encounters, it became very clear that the vast majority of the people that trained on a regular basis, cast aside their training when the action was fast and close. They would default to their natural human response. They solved problems at a sub-conscious level. I witnessed many people doing things that they had never been trained to do. After the encounter I would talk to them about their response. The majority actually did not know what they had done to solve the problem. As I told them what they did, they would often look at me in disbelief that they reacted in that manner. This furthered my interest in the subject, which lead me to my next level of enlightenment.

    I call this level Fluid Situational Response. The concept is that you can incorporate your natural human response and your conditioned response and use them fluidly in the appropriate situation all along, what 7677 calls the fighting continuum. I know some of you will say that this does not stay within the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle, or that it does not conform to Hicks law (the more options you have, the longer it will take to access an option). IMHO this is just not so. Hicks law applies to conditioned responses, that is why you should have a mastery of a few essential techniques. Hicks law does not apply to natural human response. There is no lag time to access these responses. Your body will choose the solution to the problem in a microsecond at a subconscious level. Accepting this to be fact opens up a world that very few have explored.

    My training is now geared to my Fluid Situational Response. The response is dictated by time, distance, and where you find yourself in the reactionary curve. The position on the reactionary curve is the most important factor to your response. This is where natural human response of "fight or flight" takes over. IMHO you should embrace the "fight or flight" response and train within that response. One thing to keep in mind, when it comes to firearms "fight or flight" is also "fight and flight." The direction you move, the speed of your movement, the necessary visual input to maneuver and to comprehend the problem, the necessary visual input needed to make the hits, and the necessary visual input to recognize the situational changes are all dependent on your position on the reactionary curve inside of the 7677 fight continuum.

    There is no doubt that at certain distances, going hands on before you access your handgun is the very best response. But for now, let's take a look at responses that are outside of hand to hand ranges.

    If you have succeeded in being ahead in the reactionary curve due to awareness, deception, distraction, or metsubishi (throw something in the face of your adversary) you are in a dominant position. Conditioned responses are excellent for this situation. Stand and deliver, sighted fire, aggressively advancing to your 12:00 are all appropriate responses.

    If you find yourself even in the reactionary curve, your response will have to be different. Conditioned responses may not get the job done as well as natural human response. The fight and flight response will kick in and you will want to get out of the kill zone. Move as you draw, put hits on the adversary as soon as you can using threat focused skills, work towards getting inside of the adversaries OODA loop by your movement, making hits, and acquiring his flank. Once you have turned the reactionary curve in your favor, embrace your fluid situational response and shift from a reactionary position to the dominant position and eliminate the threat.

    If you find yourself well behind the reactionary curve, your response will have to change even more. A conditioned response could be suicide, your best hope is a natural human response. Brownies startle response can be use to your advantage and you must train to be comfortable within your startle response. Flight overrides fight, because you must survive the initial contact so that you can get into the fight. Explode out of the kill zone, move to cover if near or access the weapon on the sprint, put hits on the adversary using threat focus skills, look to turn the tide, if the situation changes, flow into the next appropriate response.

    Once you embrace your Fluid Situational Response you will go places that you never thought were possible, Where your mind is the weapon and the gun is just an extension of your mind, and everything flows with no conscious thought.

    The inevitable question arises, "what is more important, to get the hits or to not get hit?" The Fluid Situational Response answers that question. When you are ahead of the reactionary curve, it is more important to get the hits. You are in the dominate position....ELIMINATE THE THREAT! If you are even on the reactionary curve the importance are equal. Use a balance of speed (of movement) and accuracy to solve the problem. If you are behind in the reactionary curve it is more important to not get hit. Get out of the kill zone by "thinking move first." Sprint to cover if it is near or access your handgun on the sprint and put hits on your adversary. Always look to get inside of the adversaries OODA loop and progress through your Fluid Situational Response until you are either dominating the confrontation or have put yourself in the position to terminate the confrontation.

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  3. #17
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    We train to move off the line of force during the draw, both to the strong and weak sides. Never move back unless it’s to cover, because it’s too easy to lose your balance. Drawing from concealment will likely require the off hand to uncover and necessitate a one hand presentation. You can demonstrate to yourself how much easier movement is when the off hand is free instead of trying to maintain a two hand hold. An onrushing BG is probably going to be at very close range by the time your gun clears on target, and a five shot zipper takes surprisingly little time. Jelly Brice once sidestepped a shotgun blast during his draw and killed the BG before he could fire another blast. You have to do some “what if” thinking as you go through your unique daily routine. That said, movement to the knife or gun side of the adversary, followed by a forward component, will take away his strong moves and make his reactions delayed with regard to your position. Is this the only drill to practice? By no means. If 99% of situations present cover, use your common sense when designing your drills, and be safe on the range.

    OUR TOP TEN RULES OF COVER

    1. Try to know in advance where cover is, how good it is, and how to use it.
    2. Get to it before the shooting starts.
    3. Never expose consecutively from the same spot.
    4. Duck out and back in to scan with minimum exposure.
    5. Quickly lean out and cant the gun if necessary for 1 to 3 shots each time.
    6. If you are comfortable, you are too visible. Resist looking to see if you score.
    7. When your position is discovered, use concealment to change cover so that you can ambush your previous spot or ambush the route your opponent has to take.
    8. Move opposite your last exposure only to get to better cover. Make your opponent do the moving in the open.
    9. Stay away from cover that can chip or splinter. Stay away from corners when rounding them and lean out to view pieces one at a time, like slices of a pie. Alternate high and low lean outs while slicing the pie.
    10. Keep scanning and orienting 360 degrees.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  4. #18
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    I train to draw and step off line , then think and react to the threat.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    On a lighter note.

    This thread reminded me of that comedy movie. Can't remember the name, but the guy is getting shot at and another guy is yelling:


    Serpentine, Serpentine!'


    Funny movie, IIRC.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Fragman, I think that was "The Inlaws" with Peter Faulk. Absolutely hilarious! You just brought it back to my memory!!!
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Well, I was going to say something about state laws, but that's already been pointed out.

    Before I start training to advance and shoot, I think I should find out whether or not the local county PA would consider such a move offensive or not, and whether or not it could land me in hot water, if I should shoot someone while doing so.

    Other wise, I'm going to stick with finding cover, if possible, getting off the line of attack, and shooting when I think it's time.

    I've watched a number of COPS shows, where the cop retreated, yelling at a perp to drop his weapon, or back off or whatever.

    While in the majority of those cases, everything turned out ok in the end, I'd have shot the guy.

    But maybe that's just me.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr
    Fragman, I think that was "The Inlaws" with Peter Faulk. Absolutely hilarious! You just brought it back to my memory!!!
    Yes! Thats the one. Might just have to put that on my Netflix queue....

  9. #23
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    +1 Gary Slider (thanks for all your work on packing.org)
    +1 Sweatnbullets (your philosophy and common sense agrees with ours)

    Your posts are most welcome and will be appreciated here. Thanks, belatedly, for joining this forum, the only one for which I have had time, lately. The mods are exceptional, and the opinions of the membership are well considered.

    After lateral movement, a forward hook is more likely to penetrate the OODA loop of the adversary. Whenever it is seen as an offensive move, one’s attorney may cite the need to avoid background casualties and missed shots. Both tunnel vision and fixated threat focus are instincts that make balance and shooting while moving backward tools requiring much training effort. Far better to build on fight/flight instincts in defensive training, because they will become difficult to sublimate, even with the warrior mindset.

    Awareness can preempt crises reactions by allowing time for decisions and giving distance for accurate actions. A moments lapse, a slight hesitation, or a determined surprise attack require CQB drills that count on the survival instincts of our reptilian brain.

    First drill is always movement off the line, while drawing. Once the gun is clear, the elbow can be thrust down to align the bore. If gross motor skills are what we have to rely on, we practice locking the wrist and gun to the forearm, and using the forearm as the pointing tool. If we visualize a gyro stabilizing the forearm, and put some tension in the shoulder/elbow muscles (no elbow to hip contact, as is taught by some) then the gun-hand-wrist-forearm makes an accurate close range pointer. Retention is enabled by angling the off side and defensive arm toward the threat. Fire control rests with the head and threat focused concentration. Shooting while moving is the goal. Firing a five shot zipper teaches the force cadence for confident accuracy at close ranges. Shooting from the draw to a two hand hold and then to the sights in a fluid dynamic insures the fastest response coupled with the most accuracy. The smiles on the student’s faces when they get it are priceless.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  10. #24
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    Just gotta say - what an interesting and stimulating thread this has become.

    Loadsa great opinions here and for me at least - much food for thought. Thanks to all who have added so much.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  11. #25
    Member Array kikr's Avatar
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    Feels kinda weird responding to this because so much good information has already been posted. BUT...I'm an opinionated SOB and this thread has got me thinking (shh don't tell anyone) Maybe I'll say something in this though that will add more value.

    As a combatives instructor I talk alot about breaking your system of training down to three levels, first is your doctrine, or the big picture that allows you to form strategy for dealing with conflict. A doctrine can be applied to any conflict where victory is the option. (not necassarily an argument with the wife...unless you LIKE the couch) For instance, my doctrine has three steps:

    1. Break the Midline
    2. Close and envelope
    3. Fight through the enemy

    Once you've established doctrine, you begin working on tactics to achieve your doctrine. Your tactics are always determined by a principle known in the army as METT-TC. Mission, Equipment, Time Available, Troops Available, Terrain, and Civilian presence. So based on that to break the midline do I move laterally, obliquely, backwards, forwards, or use a j-hook. I have to determine why I'm responding...am I in trouble, is someone else in trouble. Am I armed, and if so what with, how quickly do I have to respond, is it a hostage situation or an ambush, do I have back up with me now, whats the police response time in my area, how many BG's, what is the BG armed with. What are my surroundings, is there cover available, whats behind my target, whats behind me, wheres my escape route, wheres the BG's escape route. How many civilians or bystanders are present, whats their location, whats their acuity. Thes are some questions that you have to ask to determine your tactics in response to a conflict. This all has to be done quickly and confidantly without hesitation.

    After you've determine what tactics are applicable to the situation you determine your techniques, am I gonna speed rock and stictch this guy, am I gonna move laterally and point shoot, am I gonna j-hook back and take an aimed shot at flaccid paralysis.

    I guess the bottom line is that visualization, and preplanning for an incident is great exercise and a definate asset but you really can't predetermine a response to a situation without knowing all the factors involved with that situation. Especially as an armed citizen when you also have to be concerned with legal repercussions, and more times than not your families safety is dependant on your judgement as much as your safety is.

    This has been an awesome thread I hope I've added to it.
    We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
    George Orwell

  12. #26
    Member Array Glockman21's Avatar
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    I would like to appoligize to everyone for my ignorance earlier in this thread. I am new the sene of CC and I guess I have watched to many movies and not listned to enough "real" world advice.
    I guess what I was tring to say before was if cover wasn't avaliable I would close the distance between the BG and myself moving to the sides as well as foward.
    Some great advice and training tactics in this thread.

  13. #27
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    Glock bud its all ok , no one here dislikes you , You came out with an assult the bg post , and got varied reactions including mine . Its all good and i would reccomend that if you are fishing for info then ask a question . We really dont flame on this board but we can get strident on our opinions . You want to learn well this is the place to be , just play well with us and we will respect your opinion while stating ours LOL
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  14. #28
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glockman17
    I would like to appoligize to everyone for my ignorance earlier in this thread. I am new the sene of CC and I guess I have watched to many movies and not listned to enough "real" world advice.
    I guess what I was tring to say before was if cover wasn't avaliable I would close the distance between the BG and myself moving to the sides as well as foward.
    Some great advice and training tactics in this thread.
    Do not feel like the Lone Ranger. There are those that have an unbelievable amount of real world experience that state that aggressive, straight forward movement is all you need. Guys Like Fairbairn, Sykes, and Applegate.

    I prefer to be more well rounded.

    I appreciate that you sarted this thread. I have been around on a lot of forums and have never seen such a large group or obviously squared away individules with such well thought out opinions. 7677 and I seem to have been lone voices for so long that it is good to hear others that have headed down the same path with the same thought process.

    Very good thread Glockman17! Be proud of the information that has come out in it.

    Gunthorp, Thank you.

    Kikr, nice addition.

    Rocky, how can you say so much in so few words?

    So much has been covered and it really is all intertwined. Here is another piece of the puzzle in regards to movement. This is something that is often overlooked.

    Visual input

    When it comes to vision, I see things a little differently than a lot of other people. There is the necessary vision to make the shot (see what you need to see) and there is another aspect of vision that people tend to ignore. I believe that the body will choose the height and the extension of the gun due to the amount of vision that the brain will require to solve the entire problem.

    The visual information the the brain requires is covered in my Fluid Situatonal Response.

    The ability to make the hit.
    The ability to ID the threat.
    The ability to have a field of vision to comprehend the entire problem.
    The ability to have a field of vision that facilitates movement that has purpose.
    The ability to have a field of vision to manuver through and around obstacles.
    The ability to recognize the changes in your position in regards to the OODA loop.
    The ability to eliminate visual interference and negative visual input.

    In my opinion, the dynamics or the chaos of the encounter will dictate the height, the extension, the positon, and whether you use one hand or two hands, in regards to your HG. This is why I feel so strongly about the ability to shoot throughout your draw stroke and from every angle and position. It is my opinon that this natural act (the body picking the best position so that the brain can take in the necessary visual information) is a much better idea than a conditioned act (always bring the gun to line of sight) that is not as well rounded or versatile and has many negatives connected with it.

    I think that the ability to put your bullets right where you are looking is a very natural and important ability. This is not some skill that takes time to develop. I could introduce anyone, to their natural ability to do this in a day or two.......and you would own that natural ability for the rest of your life with very little need for maintenance.

    I believe that natural abilities should go hand in hand with your conditoned abilities. If your conditoned abilities fail you (such as not being able to get to your line of sight) your natural abilities can take over. All your bases are covered due to being wellrounded, you just keep rolling right along.......as opposed to being flat sided.

  15. #29
    Member Array Jungle Work's Avatar
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    Movement to cover is very nice. If cover is a long way off, lateral movement is swell, especially if its to the BG's weak side.
    Move, Shoot and Communicate.

    Jungle Work

  16. #30
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    Hate to beat it to death, but movement and shooting while moving are supreme tools.

    Excellent additions, Kikr
    Sweatnbullets, again +1 You’re relating so much with few words it bears rereading. You are observing the whole chessboard.

    FWIW we also look at each chess piece in order to avoid unnatural motion or wasted effort. Good movement habits incorporating natural defensive instinct can be choreographed like the draw. Fairbairn , like martial artists of old, realized that the crouch is an instinctive reaction to stress that gives balance and the spring necessary to produce movement. His idea of a stance can be likened to that of a tennis player awaiting service.

    The tennis stance allows excellent movement options to the right or left, but it lacks the fore and aft stability to handle recoil or blows from an adversary. The boxer stance, or weak foot forward, is good for one hand retention and two hand sighted shooting, and it uses the strong foot to propel the body to the weak side and forward. On the other hand there is the fencing stance with the strong foot forward. This lends itself to better one hand sighted shooting and movement back and to the strong side. All three stances are just a matter of shifting the angle of the body and pivoting the feet. The idea is to practice transitions between the stances for a dynamic fluidity of motion. We leave to the imagination the diving for cover stance, the scared to death stance, and the falling down after being hit from behind stance.

    The two hand hold, while conducive to accuracy when time allows, makes critical survival movement awkward, at best. Instinct wants to keep the arms out away from the body for balance, like the man on a tightrope. After one sees how fast and accurate instinct shooting can be at ranges out to 15 yards, they will reserve two hand fine sight fire to the brain stem in hostage situations. After firing five shot strings, the double tap idea, except from behind cover, may fade away.

    One of our last drills, called the four quadrant drill, involves movement only to turn the body and bow or sway for defensive shooting against a sudden surprise attack, our worst nightmare, coming from any or all points abeam and abaft. The head turns to identify the threat during uncover and grip stages of the draw. After that, the goal is to put shots on target safely, quickly, and with the absolute minimum of movement.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

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