Movement - Page 3

Movement

This is a discussion on Movement within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Gunthorp, Very nice as usual. To heck with beating this to death, information like this is a gold mine. I teach what I call the ...

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Thread: Movement

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Gunthorp, Very nice as usual. To heck with beating this to death, information like this is a gold mine.

    I teach what I call the "Get out of the kill zone draw stroke." It is an explosive move that gets you off of the line of attack while simultaneously acquiring your HG. I'm not just talking about side stepping.....it is an explosive move like a wide reciever starting his pass pattern. To accomplish this simultaneously one needs to "think move first." If you do not "think move first", you will hesitate in the kill zone while trying to access your HG. BAD JUJU!


    With this explosive movement, I have found the the closed front garment can be much more difficult to deal with than from a static position, or with controlled movement. Here is what I have found to work best for me

    Clearing the closed front garment during dynamic movement.

    I have been showed many ways to do this. So far none have been completely satifactory. I came up with this procedure, never seen it, never heard of it, but I'm sure someone else is already doing it and has named it.

    Take the firing side hand and grab the garment right below the gun.

    Rip the garment out and up till the garment is held on the rib cage (makes no different where you wear the holster)

    As you are ripping the garment out and up the support side hand is coming to the chest area as in the four count draw stroke. The support side hand presses the ripped garment against the torso and holds it in place. (this is done very quickly)

    The firing side hand goes down and aquires the firing grip and draws the gun.

    The support side hand releases the garment and mates with the gun at count three or it goes out to the side for balance and to facilitate dynamic movement.
    **************************************
    The problems that I was looking to solve are simple.

    How to get to the gun in a very effective and dependable manner.

    A manner that dractically reduces the chances of missing the garment in the initial grab.

    A way to gaurantee that the garment is out of the way and stays out of the way, so you do not end up with a fist full of shirt.

    A clearance that helps facilitate dynamic movement out of the kill zone. With this type of movement I found that the dynamics of the garment changes. The twisting of the body, the wind generated by the initial explosion out of the kill zone, and the natural tendency to swing the arms to help facilitate the movement tend to leave the garment tighter to the body than from a static position.

    Those were the problems, and I have to admit that it took me about three seconds to come up with my answer.

    The full, firing side hand grasp of the garment is a very dependable motion.

    It is your primary hand.

    The dependability of "out and up" is a key factor.

    It does not require some akward twisting or reaching of the support side hand that takes away from your ability to initiate your explosive movement out of the kill zone.

    Reaching the support side hand around to your 4:00 is just not dependable and leaves very little very little room to pull "out and up."



    Now what about the support side hand? This is where many people may decide that the clearance is not for them. As a Modern Techniques guy it is absolutely perfect. My default drawstroke brings my suppot side hand explosively to my pectoral region. This indexes my support hand in a position to aquire my count three (compressed ready.) So my thinking is if my hand is going to be coming there in most cases, (outside of bad breath distances) why not have it hold my garment up? I found that it worked perfecty and was extremely reliable and fast. It worked with appendix, at the 3:00 and at the 4:00 position. The support side hand did have to come further past the centerline at the 4:00 position. No big deal, it naturally knew where it needed to go with zero conscious thought.

    I also found the the explosive movement of the support side hand to the pectoral region hepled facilitate my dynamic movement out of the kill zone.

    I know, I know, I am still going to have to have a one handed draw. But the truth be told, there is no one handed draw (from a close front garment) that is as dependable as a two handed draw. I want to be as sure as I possibly can within the known context.

    I came up with a catchy name, if this if it is indeed my technique.

    I call it "clearing a closed front garment." Kind of catchy isn't it? LMAO!


  2. #32
    VIP Member
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    Cool
    Catchy, in a strong handed kind of way :)
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  3. #33
    Member Array kikr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets
    The ability to make the hit.
    The ability to ID the threat.
    The ability to have a field of vision to comprehend the entire problem.
    The ability to have a field of vision that facilitates movement that has purpose.
    The ability to have a field of vision to manuver through and around obstacles.
    The ability to recognize the changes in your position in regards to the OODA loop.
    The ability to eliminate visual interference and negative visual input.
    Not to be captain obvious but gotta say it:

    The ability to Accept the threat. More about mindset than vision. But I encounter it frequently, where people say "this can't be happening" Or "a nice guy like that wouldnt hurt anyone" If it feels wrong it is wrong and denying the danger only increases it.
    We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
    George Orwell

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kikr
    Not to be captain obvious but gotta say it:

    The ability to Accept the threat. More about mindset than vision. But I encounter it frequently, where people say "this can't be happening" Or "a nice guy like that wouldnt hurt anyone" If it feels wrong it is wrong and denying the danger only increases it.
    kiker, It is obvious.... but not to many. All of this is intertwined, mindset, vision, reaction, movement, tactics, and response.

    It is obvious....... but look how few people talk about it. This thread started as a simple movement thread, but there is no way to talk just about movement without covering the things that are intertwined into it.

    Movement must have purpose and effective movement has certain factors that must enter into the equation.

  5. #35
    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    Away is allways prefered even if it makes it harder for you to hit them, IMO the only reasons to go toward the BG is 3rd party protection, thats where cover is, you at at contact distance and need to get control of their weapon.

    Saying the attacker is armed with a knife or a firearm, dosn't matter. Pressing the attacker is the way to go, offence is better than defence.
    It does make a difference a knife is only good at close range and a better weapon than a gun in the right hands, you have to be somewhat skilled to hit a motionless target at 21' any idiot can hit you at 10' just by pulling the trigger, if their gun is out you may not make it 21' or less.

    If it was so wrong in the "real" world, why would the US Armed forces teach push the atacker?
    I might consider pressing the attacker with 20 guys behind me with automatic weapons.

    Your decision for fight or flight will not be a conscious decision it will depend on the circumstances at the time and on your training which just shooting at the range may not help with, pulling the trigger is the easy part its your tactics that will decide the outcome more than anything else.

    I'm not saying blindly, but I won't retreat when fired upon. Stand my ground yes, push foward when the time comes yes, retreat..... NO.
    You might be surprised how willing you are to retreat / gain distance when someone points a gun / shooting at you, its human nature to move away from gunfire. If the poice are trained to increase distance and they get shot at more than any other group of people out there it can't be all that bad an idea.

    Remember tv is not the real world its entertainment if the hero backed away and seeked cover he wouldn't be the hero, the news isn't much better they spin it how they want to get the reaction they want.

    Shoot often and stay safe.

  6. #36
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    gotammo, spot on, concise, points addressed
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  7. #37
    Member Array tabraha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Just gotta say - what an interesting and stimulating thread this has become.

    Loadsa great opinions here and for me at least - much food for thought. Thanks to all who have added so much.
    That's exactly what I was thinking. I think I'm going to be re-reading this thread SEVERAL times. Thanks for everyones HUGE amounts of input. I feel very underprepared after reading alot of this.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabraha
    That's exactly what I was thinking. I think I'm going to be re-reading this thread SEVERAL times. Thanks for everyones HUGE amounts of input. I feel very underprepared after reading alot of this.
    Heck you like it so far....check this out....

    Four Elements of Accurate Shooting with Dynamic Movement

    There are four elements that must be in place to be able to make hits on a full run with a handgun. They are quite simple, but am very surprised that they have never been written down before. My definition of accurate is inside of the thoracic cavity.

    (1) Absolute confidence in your threat focused skills. You must have your threat focused skills down to a subconsciously competent level.

    (2) Elimination of negative visual input. The gun must not be in your line of sight. You must not be able to see the sight alignment. You should only be able to verify that the arm, hand, and entire weapon is aligned on the targeted area.

    (3) One handed shooting skills. You must be able to shoot very well one handed. Two handed shooting on the run is not effective or efficient.

    (4) The ability to use the support side hand and arm in a natural manner to stabilize the firing side hand.

    That is all there is to it. Take it out to the range....play with it for a while. If you do not have threat focused skills get some training.

  9. #39
    Member Array kikr's Avatar
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    OH oh, I got one. Personally, I'm rarely out without my family and my 5 year old son is almost always with in arms reach. Should movement be to draw fire away from him, or should movement be with him in tow?
    We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
    George Orwell

  10. #40
    Member Array tabraha's Avatar
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    kikr, I'd say it is generally situational. I don't have kids but I have repeatedly told my wife that if SHTF her first duty is to get the hell out of there and worry about me later, maybe while she calls 911! I suppose in most of the situations I've played out I prefer the decoy method. I don't really want to put multiple targets that I treasure in close proximity to each other. Makes it easier for some BG to hit something important.
    Last edited by tabraha; June 23rd, 2006 at 05:10 PM.
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  11. #41
    Member Array kikr's Avatar
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    Just to be fair, my plan for actions on is to scoot away from the family as per my combat doctrine. If my wife is with me then her and the kid are to find a hole to hide in while I either shield them or shoot and scoot away from them. Either way she's in charge of getting through to 911.

    I will say this, all my training has always stated that planning on have the significant other clear the area is not a reasonable plan. The significant other as a general rule, unless they are well trained, or really wants the insurance money, will not leave.

    As far as with my kid, my plan is to cover him with myself as I go E&E and try to clear out of the danger zone. There is no way I try very hard not to have him out of my sight in normal situation. In a critical incident like this I wouldnt want him more than an arms length away.
    We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
    George Orwell

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    It's not so cut and dried for me. All the theories and training don't cover a wife who is wheelchair bound with severe MS. She will be unable to move herself to a safer place or seek cover if things go wrong . My options are pretty much limited movement to protect her and enter the fight with a no holds barred attitude. It really puts me in more of a body guard role than just "self" defense. While no spring chicken any more I still can shoot, have trained alot with a blade in the past, fight dirty and use accumulated dirty tricks and guile accumulated over the years. My primary tactic in protecting her still needs to be situational avoidance and awareness. Too many scumbags look at the handicapped as easy victims...

    Eric
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    On the protection of loved ones, tabraha nailed it pretty well....situationally dependent.

    This also brings us back to the initial post by Glockman17 and what Fairbairn, Applegate, and Sykes believed in, aggressively advancing forward. If your duty is to protect your loved ones, this is very close to your duty as a Shanghai Police Officer or as a WWII soldier.

    All of a sudden if your number one priority is the safety of a loved one, everything changes. Taking the fight to the BG becomes a very real possibility.

    That forward movement should be to an angle that takes the line of attack off of the loved one.
    Last edited by Sweatnbullets; June 28th, 2006 at 11:11 PM.

  14. #44
    Member Array 7677's Avatar
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    My $.02 on this subject,

    You can sprint and shoot but the effective range of doing such is not going to be much more then three yards moving to the flanks and five to seven moving straight in at the target. This is general rule as some people can make hits from further out. Matt has pointed out the faster a person moves that the body, arms, etc. are going to bounce and deduce accuracy. The further the distance of the shot the more the bouncing is going to affect the accuracy.

    Most incidents with handguns occur at less then 21 feet with 5 to 7 feet being the most common. Let face it if you are more then 7 yards away and you have picked up the threat and you should move to a position of advantage, i.e. cover, and if a shot needed use your sights.

    However, threat identification may not have picked up the threat and cover is not always available.

    What then?

    What is the most common style of shooting and moving taught in most firearms schools today?

    The groucho walk?

    The groucho walk, while keeping you from falling over obstacles and reducing the bounce of sights, does not even allow you to move as fast as you can normally walk. To groucho walk, you move too slowly and your easy pickings but if you move to fast running and your accuracy suffers depending on the distance. Again, we are talking close quarters and close quarter’s combat techniques with a handgun, not engaging a enemy that is 25 to 100 yards away with a rifle.

    At these disances, we are most likely reacting to a threat moving to avoid being shot and using a point shooting technique to return fire.

    In certain situations, I have been taught to move at just under running speed and to neutralize threats at extreme close quarters because there is no other way to accomplish this task and the next exercise, we moved at slow deliberate pace and neutralized threats with the use of our sights... Action versus Reaction. What tactic or technique we used ultimately came down to the circumstances unique to the situation and the environment surrounding it. A shooter needs to know their own personal abilities such as fast they can move and the distance at which their accuracy begins to suffer with both point shooting and sighted fire techniques.

    I can’t even begin to add up the amount of time I have spent in training with moving and shooting. From fast paced to slow paced, handgun, shotgun, and carbine, which included re-loading and malfunction clearing all while on the move. This was done to allow us to learn our own unique abilities and limitations and to become comfortable with moving and shooting until it became second nature.

    After we learned the tactics and techniques, realistic training came into play and our final test was the shoot house/aircraft/moving buses/etc. with sims guns. Sims guns have opened up the ability to allow realistic training with both opponents moving and acting just as they would in real life if it is done right.
    Last edited by 7677; June 30th, 2006 at 10:18 AM.

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote:
    "I think it bears mentioning that given the typical gun guy, he may not have the requisite torso flexibility to pull off moving, for instance, to the 1:00 and shooting on the move to his 10 then 9 then perhaps 8 as the angles increase."


    Check out this clip. It is not the exact situation that you described, but there are definite similarities.

    The context of this clip is simply to document the initial step to the right and the turn inward for memory purposes. This is by no means a technical training clip. In fact this is only the second time I had ever done the technique. Since it was purely as a reference source, there was no attempt to do this drill in an "impressive" manner. The proximity of the target, speed of the draw, the speed off of the X, the speed of the movement, the speed on the trigger was not a concern at all......and that will show.

    What is good about the clip is this. The usual technique to the right rear oblique has one turning outward and shooting across the body either two handed or one. This can be, as you well know, impossible for some people due to the "binding up." It also limits the direction that your movement can take you. Turning outward limits your directional changes possibilities to the right, but also to the adversaries flanks (which of course can be a very good thing if the situation dictates that direction.) It also leaves your "leading" arm/hand occupied because it is the gun hand.

    The clip shows an alternative. With the step to the right in the initial move, you can turn inward. This leads to a few very obvious advantages.

    (1) There is much less binding up and opens possibilities to many "less flexible" shooters.

    (2) This opens up the ability to change your direction to the left. A number LEO's have commented on the benefits of this, in regards to fighting their way back to their cars.

    (3) It leaves the leading arm/hand unoccupied. This arm can now be used to guide oneself by feel, used to catch yourself if you go down, and as a way to counter balance and stabalize the firing hand/gun. If you notice the way that I am using the support side arm in it's natural swinging manner. This is directly responsible for the stability that you see at the handgun. The counter balancing and stablizing is a huge asset to to one handed shooting with dynamic movement IMHO.

    It is my opinion that movement must have purpose. There must be reason behind the direction of the movement. It can be to create distance, move to cover, acquire the adversaries flanks, to put accurate hits on your adversary while making yourself harder to hit, to get inside of the adversaries OODA loop, to turn multiple adversaries into sequential adversaries, etc. Ones skillset on movement should be well rounded and have as many bases covered as possible.

    This clip is just one more small piece of the puzzle.

    Thanks to Oregonshooter for hosting it.

    http://www.oregonshooter.com/index.p..._download&id=5

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