No CCW at IDPA matches or shooting ranges in NC

This is a discussion on No CCW at IDPA matches or shooting ranges in NC within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; At least that is the way I read the law. In NC concealed carry is off limits at any assembly where admission is charged. So ...

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Thread: No CCW at IDPA matches or shooting ranges in NC

  1. #1
    Member Array funklab's Avatar
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    No CCW at IDPA matches or shooting ranges in NC

    At least that is the way I read the law.

    In NC concealed carry is off limits at any assembly where admission is charged.

    So no fairs, movie theaters, sporting events, etc.

    But if those are off limits, then shouldn't it also be true that you are not allowed to carry at an IDPA match (assuming a fee is paid to participate) or a shooting range (where you pay to be admitted to the range).

    Anybody got an opinion on this?

    We have got some really terrible handgun laws in NC....

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    I guess it depends on the definition of assembly?
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    Member Array funklab's Avatar
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    After taking the concealed carry class, it seems like just about any situation depends on you definition of something. Or more correctly the court's definition of a vague word or phrase.

    However it seems universally accepted that a movie theater is an assembly, thus I can't see anyone arguing that an IDPA match is not also an assembly.

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    Probably NRA affilated ranges and that is how it goes.

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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    FWIW, I pay to use the lanes at my range. I do not pay an entrance fee just to walk in the door. To me, admission is paying to get in the door. Not paying to do something in the business. As far as IDPA, are you paying to run the course or paying to step foot into the event. I would think that would make ALL the difference in NC.

    And a word of advice. Always go to the source. NC General Statutes, most gun laws are in section 14 criminal law.

    14‑269.3. Carrying weapons into assemblies and establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry any gun, rifle, or pistol into any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission thereto, or into any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    (b) This section shall not apply to the following:
    (1) A person exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14‑269;
    (2) The owner or lessee of the premises or business establishment;
    (3) A person participating in the event, if he is carrying a gun, rifle, or pistol with the permission of the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event; and
    (4) A person registered or hired as a security guard by the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event.
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  7. #6
    Member Array funklab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    To me, admission is paying to get in the door. Not paying to do something in the business. As far as IDPA, are you paying to run the course or paying to step foot into the event.
    I will give you that on IDPA, as you could probably spectate for free, thus it is not really admission, but at a shooting range it is very hard to distinguish that fee as anything other than admission (at least at the ranges I shoot at), you couldn't just walk out onto the range to observe, you are paying to get in.

    I could say that to me I am not paying admission to the movie theater, I am purchasing the enjoyment of a movie, but lawyers and judges prolly wont see it that way.

    I guess basically what I got from the NC carry class was that there are very few hard and fast rules. Carry where you want, where you want, but if you ever have to so much as draw your gun it will definitely end up in court to argue about some fine point of the law that is ill defined.

    And you can shoot someone trying to break into your house and be okay... unless he gets in, once he is inside you have to meet a bunch of other requirements before you can use force... I just don't get that one.

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    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    I would say, at a private event on private property, that section could be waived. A local gun shop/range in Greenville, SC allows open carry on their premises. Open carry is not allowed in SC. However, you may open carry on your own property, or on someone else's who gives you permission.

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    Senior Member Array SCfromNY's Avatar
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    Most if not all IDPA or USPSA events are on "Cold Ranges" which means your gun must be unloaded except when told to load or at a shooting station. You can go to the ant hill range in NC website, to learn about cold ranges.
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    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post

    14‑269.3. Carrying weapons into assemblies and establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry any gun, rifle, or pistol into any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission thereto, or into any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    (b) This section shall not apply to the following:
    (1) A person exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14‑269;
    (2) The owner or lessee of the premises or business establishment;
    (3) A person participating in the event, if he is carrying a gun, rifle, or pistol with the permission of the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event; and
    (4) A person registered or hired as a security guard by the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event.
    If we read the statute, we find that IDPA, a gun range, etc. would not be a banned location, even if determined to be an assembly where admission was paid, since everyone there would be carrying with the permission of the person running the event.

    This is the same reason why it is not illegal for us to carry a firearm at a gun show - where there is no doubt that we have paid admission for entry into it.

  11. #10
    Member Array Bigg Daddy's Avatar
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    No a gun show is definitely out,as they always have signs that say no loaded firearms......... that indicates you definitely do not have the permission of the property owner nor show organizer that rented the space.

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCfromNY View Post
    Most if not all IDPA or USPSA events are on "Cold Ranges" which means your gun must be unloaded except when told to load or at a shooting station. You can go to the ant hill range in NC website, to learn about cold ranges.
    Not only that, but hte rules forbid carrying more than one gun at a time. Many clubs have a "CCW disarming station"--like a safe area, but away from the match/spectators where you can handle a live weapon.
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    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigg Daddy View Post
    No a gun show is definitely out,as they always have signs that say no loaded firearms......... that indicates you definitely do not have the permission of the property owner nor show organizer that rented the space.
    So you have never seen someone who wasn't a vendor in possession of a firearm at a gun show in North Carolina?

    GS 14-269.3 prohibits all firearms at events and establishments covered by the statute, not concealed firearms. Its not legal to walk into a place covered by 14-269.3 open carrying a clearly unloaded shotgun (action open) anymore than it is to walk into the same place carrying a loaded concealed handgun. Its simply illegal for anyone, other than those exempted by the statute, to possess a firearm of any kind AT ALL.

    Gun shows allow people to enter with unloaded weapons for the purpose of sale or trade. Carrying a loaded weapon into the show would be a violation of the rules and probably open up the person doing so to arrest for a violation of 14-269.3 (unless they were a person exempt from the statute, like a LEO).

    It would be impossible to compete in an IDPA match, assuming it was an assembly to which admission was charged (in my opinion IDPA matches are not such assemblies), if it wasn't possible to legally possess a firearm on the property.

    An interesting question, however, is whether its legal for a person who does not have a valid NC CHP (or a CHP recognized by NC) to carry a concealed handgun while competing in an IDPA match. GS 14-269 doesn't make an exception for carrying with the permission of the property owner on the property of another. As best I can tell, its simply not legal for someone without a CHP to conceal a firearm at an IDPA match, even when competing in that match. Is it likely anyone would be charged? No, but it is possible.

    14‑269. Carrying concealed weapons.

    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and intentionally to carry concealed about his person any bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slung shot, loaded cane, metallic knuckles, razor, shurikin, stun gun, or other deadly weapon of like kind, except when the person is on the person's own premises.

    (a1) It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and intentionally to carry concealed about his person any pistol or gun except in the following circumstances:

    (1) The person is on the person's own premises.

    (2) The deadly weapon is a handgun, and the person has a concealed handgun permit issued in accordance with Article 54B of this Chapter or considered valid under G.S. 14‑415.24.

    (3) The deadly weapon is a handgun and the person is a military permittee as defined under G.S. 14‑415.10(2a) who provides to the law enforcement officer proof of deployment as required under G.S. 14‑415.11(a).

    (b) This prohibition shall not apply to the following persons:

    (1) Officers and enlisted personnel of the armed forces of the United States when in discharge of their official duties as such and acting under orders requiring them to carry arms and weapons;

    (2) Civil and law enforcement officers of the United States;

    (3) Officers and soldiers of the militia and the National Guard when called into actual service;

    (4) Officers of the State, or of any county, city, town, or company police agency charged with the execution of the laws of the State, when acting in the discharge of their official duties;

    (5) Sworn law‑enforcement officers, when off‑duty, provided that an officer does not carry a concealed weapon while consuming alcohol or an unlawful controlled substance or while alcohol or an unlawful controlled substance remains in the officer's body.


    (b1) It is a defense to a prosecution under this section that:

    (1) The weapon was not a firearm;

    (2) The defendant was engaged in, or on the way to or from, an activity in which he legitimately used the weapon;

    (3) The defendant possessed the weapon for that legitimate use; and

    (4) The defendant did not use or attempt to use the weapon for an illegal purpose.

    The burden of proving this defense is on the defendant.

    (b2) It is a defense to a prosecution under this section that:

    (1) The deadly weapon is a handgun;

    (2) The defendant is a military permittee as defined under G.S. 14‑415.10(2a); and

    (3) The defendant provides to the court proof of deployment as defined under G.S. 14‑415.10(3a).

    (c) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (a) of this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Any person violating the provisions of subsection (a1) of this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor for the first offense. A second or subsequent offense is punishable as a Class I felony.

    (d) This section does not apply to an ordinary pocket knife carried in a closed position. As used in this section, "ordinary pocket knife" means a small knife, designed for carrying in a pocket or purse, that has its cutting edge and point entirely enclosed by its handle, and that may not be opened by a throwing, explosive, or spring action. (Code, s. 1005; Rev., s. 3708; 1917, c. 76; 1919, c. 197, s. 8; C.S., s. 4410; 1923, c. 57; Ex. Sess. 1924, c. 30; 1929, cc. 51, 224; 1947, c. 459; 1949, c. 1217; 1959, c. 1073, s. 1; 1965, c. 954, s. 1; 1969, c. 1224, s. 7; 1977, c. 616; 1981, c. 412, s. 4; c. 747, s. 66; 1983, c. 86; 1985, c. 432, ss. 1‑3; 1993, c. 539, s. 163; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 1995, c. 398, s. 2; 1997‑238, s. 1; 2003‑199, s. 2; 2005‑232, ss. 4, 5; 2005‑337, s. 1; 2006‑259, s. 5(a); 2009‑281, s. 1.)
    -Landric

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  14. #13
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    I feel sorry for you CCW permit holders in NC, after a brief review of places one can't carry, it appears that the only place one CAN carry is at home...what a bummer!
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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I feel sorry for you CCW permit holders in NC, after a brief review of places one can't carry, it appears that the only place one CAN carry is at home...what a bummer!
    Ret, it's not quite that bad but it's definitely a minefield up here for us carriers. Hopefully some of that can get worked out soon.
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    Member Array Bigg Daddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landric View Post
    So you have never seen someone who wasn't a vendor in possession of a firearm at a gun show in North Carolina?

    GS 14-269.3 prohibits all firearms at events and establishments covered by the statute, not concealed firearms. Its not legal to walk into a place covered by 14-269.3 open carrying a clearly unloaded shotgun (action open) anymore than it is to walk into the same place carrying a loaded concealed handgun. Its simply illegal for anyone, other than those exempted by the statute, to possess a firearm of any kind AT ALL. .
    Three things
    1) I stated loaded firearm.
    2)if they were carrying illegally concealed (nope guess i wouldn't see them) the statues you posted clearly state you CAN NOT carry at the gun show.
    3)Carry wherever you like it's only a misdemeanor when you get caught, If you have a situation that you had to use your weapon the misdemeanor is the least of your problems. If the shoot is found to be justified they can only charge you with the misdemeanor.the old tried by 12 rather than carried by 6 rule applies here.

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