You you tell? Would you do it?

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Thread: You you tell? Would you do it?

  1. #1
    Member Array fatcat's Avatar
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    You you tell? Would you do it?

    If you worked at a place that did NOT allow CC at work, and you found out someone was doing it, would you tell?

    The story is that my buddy Tom, is a supervisor at his job, and noticed that one of his guys is CC while at work. Tom is NOT an "anti" he has guns, he just does not break company policy because he wants his job...

    He approached the employee, who has a CC permit, and the employee told him "I don't care" about the policy, he is going to put his life before policy and carry. He basically said he will lose his job over it should it come to that....

    So my questions are:

    1) Would you carry at work knowing it is a company violation?
    2) Would you tell on someone who was doing it in spite of policy?

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  3. #2
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    I'll jump to the second question. As the supervisor your friend has a duty to uphold company policy and to make certain his subordinates do so. He is risking his own job if it ever becomes known to the owners or upper management that he knew about this and failed to address it.

    People who deliberately do one thing wrong, in this instance deliberately violate a well known corporate policy where they work, have a personality trait which makes them prone to place their judgment above either that of their employment supervisors or sometimes even the law. Rules and laws get broken at risk of punishment.

    Your friend should talk to his subordinate one more time and explain that what he is doing is putting your friend's job on the line and that your friend has a family and can't afford to allow a subordinate to break the rules. Then, if the subordinate remains recalcitrant, it should be reported to HR or similar in writing, documenting the the subordinate was counseled to stop the prohibited activity. That way your friend keeps his job no matter.

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    Member Array MSteve's Avatar
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    I probably wouldn't carry if it was against company policy.

    As far as reporting the other guy...
    If it was otherwise legal, and he was only violating company policy, I'd probably leave it alone. It's between him and the company. That would have to be tempered with what my role is in relation to the employee, e.g. supervisor, peer, subordinate, etc.
    IF it is illegal (e.g. like it is where I work) then I'd probably feel compelled to report it.
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    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    #1) Depends where I'm Working (If Leagal)

    #2) No I'm Like Sgt, Shultz, I See Nothinnnggggg ; )
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    If it's discovered that he knew and didn't report it, he'll be terminated. I would give the guy the ultimatum. One more chance to comply, then report to HR. Tough situation though.

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    Hopyard is 100% correct.
    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato

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    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I'll jump to the second question. As the supervisor your friend has a duty to uphold company policy and to make certain his subordinates do so. He is risking his own job if it ever becomes known to the owners or upper management that he knew about this and failed to address it.

    People who deliberately do one thing wrong, in this instance deliberately violate a well known corporate policy where they work, have a personality trait which makes them prone to place their judgment above either that of their employment supervisors or sometimes even the law. Rules and laws get broken at risk of punishment.

    Your friend should talk to his subordinate one more time and explain that what he is doing is putting your friend's job on the line and that your friend has a family and can't afford to allow a subordinate to break the rules. Then, if the subordinate remains recalcitrant, it should be reported to HR or similar in writing, documenting the the subordinate was counseled to stop the prohibited activity. That way your friend keeps his job no matter.
    Unfortunately, this is the correct and only route open to him.
    Well stated Hopyard.
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    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I'll jump to the second question. As the supervisor your friend has a duty to uphold company policy and to make certain his subordinates do so. He is risking his own job if it ever becomes known to the owners or upper management that he knew about this and failed to address it.

    People who deliberately do one thing wrong, in this instance deliberately violate a well known corporate policy where they work, have a personality trait which makes them prone to place their judgment above either that of their employment supervisors or sometimes even the law. Rules and laws get broken at risk of punishment.

    Your friend should talk to his subordinate one more time and explain that what he is doing is putting your friend's job on the line and that your friend has a family and can't afford to allow a subordinate to break the rules. Then, if the subordinate remains recalcitrant, it should be reported to HR or similar in writing, documenting the the subordinate was counseled to stop the prohibited activity. That way your friend keeps his job no matter.
    the only statement i disagree with is the bolded...his family or financial situation should not be mentioned...all that matters is company policy and disregard for such...there is no reasoning beyond that...his job is in jeapardy if company policy is not adhered to and the discussion should be documented in writing and in his personnel file....

  10. #9
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    Hopyard hit the nail on the head. Both your friend and the employee agreed to follow company policy when hired. You friend, as a supervisor, is not required to agree with company policy. He is required to enforce it though.
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    1.)

    That would depend on an awful lot of factors. What is the reason behind the policy? How likely is it that I could be discovered? Is it a firing offense? How difficult would it be to find a new job?



    2.)

    Supervisory postition or just a co-worker?

    If just a co-worked, no way. Mind your own business.

    If a supervisor, that is harder. As a supervisor I would have to justify the policy in my own mind, and then decide about enforcement. Policies of all sort are in place for a reason. They protect the company from legal action and, in some cases, they protect the employees as well. Of course, sometimes it is just PC idiocy. Either way, it is a supervisor's responsibility to ensure that staff is complying with that policy.

    My personal opinion is that carry should be allowed in any place that is not prohibited by law. I happen to manage a company where we can not carry at all. Our company vehicles are on federal property several times per day as well as other locations that are prohibited. I encourage my staff to maintain strong SA when in the field. Unfortunately that is the best we can do. If I discovered an employee violating the law by carrying in these WFZ's and thereby jeapordizing contracts, not to mention their own legal headache if caught, I would have to address the issue.

    It's a lousy position to be in. However, I also feel that a gun is not the only weapon at my disposal. The greatest weapon each of us have is our brains. Keep your eyes and ears open, pay attention to what others are doing around you, and be ready to move if and when it becomes necessary.
    "Mind own business"
    "Always cut cards"

  12. #11
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    If you feel that strongly about carrying at work, you should work with the HR dept to either get the policy changed or get an exemption (in writing). If you can't, vote with your feet and leave.
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  13. #12
    Senior Member Array ep1953's Avatar
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    I'm sure the victims killed by omar thorton in Manchester CT happened to have a concealed carry permit, I'm sure they didn't carry concealed because they didn't want to break company policy.

    "Company policy" prohibiting concealed carry is just another defense free victim zone. What's more important? Your job or your life?

    As for the supervisor referred to by the OP, I think the Sgt. Shultz response is best. Just my opinion.

  14. #13
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    Assuming there is no more to the story or risks involved, it is one of those things I would not tell, but I would not forget about either. Other than that, Hopyard makes some valid points and gives me some things to think about.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  15. #14
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    No CC'ing policy at work isn't going to stop any person from doing what Omar did. Maybe if there was someone at work that CC'd a few folks might have been saved or not. But the odd's were better for the employees if one of them had been carrying.

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  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed with Hopyard, 100%.

    I'm a business owner and employer.
    On purpose I have no policy against carry in office space. No carry to client locations is allowed though as most often they are located at state and federal government installations. Although I have myself broken my own not stated 'policy' and carried to client meetings that were not held at NPE zones.
    None of my employees carrys and just two are pro-gun as I am, keeping arms in their homes for protection.

    I would expect a supervisor to enforce policy. Period.
    So if your friend the supervisor is found out OR the employee is found out and taken to the mat to which you know he'll out the supervisor as having talked to him prior, then well they both get a reprimand if not fired. Note the dichotomy there. I am not alone there; This is business management 101.

    As to the employee, if I were an employee I very likely would be doing same.
    Dis-obeyng policy and carry anyway as long as I could reasonably pull it off AND I were not assigned with any regularity to a .GOV location (state is okay because you can disarm and short term store it securely in your vehicle).
    Here is the thing though; The employee is wrong in that he GOT CAUGHT. This is key.
    What is not known harms no one, generally. But now that dude was lax with his carry method to such a degree as to be seen/caught resulting in it becoming known to a supervisor...He now has forced hands to censure if not fire him. At least one person other than the super knows he has broken policy...And by that at least one other person knows that the super is soft on policy enforcement.
    Who is this other person? The guy that the employee told after being talked to by the super. His on the job best friend, cube mate, lunch buddy whom ever. Guaranteed at least one other person on the job is aware of this situation and dialog. We're talking about humans here.

    So to my eye the super has no choice but to censure if not fire the employee.
    To protect his own interests as a super, and his job.

    The employee if he were smart should start looking for another job, yesterday.
    and next time around invest in more proper not just discreet but rather _covert_ manner of carry method; Including specific gun and spare magazine retention system as well as a covert carry specific handgun itself.

    Discreet carry is a holster covered by a cover shirt. One could carry a full sized all steel 1911 with spare mag on the off hip, discretely.
    Covert carry is a whole other and higher degree of method. Think undercover police or intelligence agent and what those specialized modes of firearm carry involve & require. You won't see those type persons carrying. Why? Because they do so covertly in a manner that is to a high functional degree.
    We have to my recollection three members here who are said persons and have talked about as much to varying degree toward successful carry of a firearm.

    People really need to think about their environment, it's conditions and the very real cost of being caught as when carrying.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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