Fate or concealed carry?

This is a discussion on Fate or concealed carry? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I do not believe that "fluctuations in my personal fortunes are of absorbing interest to a supreme being". Nor are there many words ever mentioned ...

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Thread: Fate or concealed carry?

  1. #31
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    I do not believe that "fluctuations in my personal fortunes are of absorbing interest to a supreme being". Nor are there many words ever mentioned to describe the absence of divine intervention in the case of truly innocent victims who suffer at the hands of BG's (whom it appears 'fate' frequently favors).

    At this point in my experience it appears to me neither Law Enforcement Officers, nor God, nor Fate will be there when I need to defend myself . . . . help is not coming . . . it is my responsibility . . . I'm on my own.
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

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  3. #32
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    Talking Fate and Religion

    When I was a kid I heard a joke told by a minister about a devoutly religious man and his tribulations during a flood, it went something like this:

    There was a devoutly religious man of God and he believed God would save him because of his strong Faith.
    One day it started raining and after a while it was beginning to flood and the water was up to his door jam. The police came by and asked him to leave with them and he said No God will save me if I need it.
    Then the next day the water was up to the second floor and a Fire Dept boat pulled up to a window and asked the man to leave, once again he said, No God will save me if I need it.
    On the third day as the man sat on the roof a National Guard Helicopter flew in and asked the man to leave, once again he said, No God will save me if I need it.
    The man drowned and his spirit went to heaven where he stood in front of God.
    He said to God, My Lord I was a devout follower of your word and still I died, was it my fate to die as I did?
    God looked at the man and said, My son fate had nothing to do with it. I tried to save you, I sent the police, the fire dept and finally the National Guard, what more could I do.

    So that resonated with me and I have lived with that in mind. We were given a method to protect ourselves and loved ones and By God I will do just that when I have to.
    -Tuuek

  4. #33
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Let me offer an analogy that somewhat explains my feelings on this: Suicide. When someone commits suicide, they deliberately and intentionally end their own life. Now, one could say that it was "fate" that their life ended at that point, but there's no arguing that it wouldn't have ended at that time if they hadn't taken such an action.

    On the flip side, if "fate" is immutable and rules all, then it really doesn't matter if one carries a gun or not. You'll die when you're "scheduled" to die and there's nothing that can be done about it. So you may as well go skydiving without a parachute because "fate" will determine when you die.

    True Story: When I was growing up in rural Alabama, there was a Baptist preacher in my community whose young son (about my age) was bitten by a snake. The way I heard the story, none of the adults saw the snake so they had no idea if it was poisonous or not. Did he take his son to the doctor? No. He said something to the effect of, "If the Lord wants to take him, he'll take him."

    The son is still alive and doing fine, but I strongly disagree with this way of thinking. Faith is one thing, but we're also endowed with a property known as "common sense." "God helps those that help themselves," etc....

    Do we control everything? Of course not, but I believe that it's imperative to control the things we can.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Fate or concealed carry?
    Meaning, that daring to allow the gods to buffet us without our saying anything about it compares to taking some measure of charge for our own safety and security?

    The flow of life can be called "fate," I suppose. But fate is not some immovable rock of reality in which it's 100% likely that a given outcome is written in the stone. I believe that the flow of life can indeed be altered and affected to a degree that roughly equates to a person's preparedness, commitment and choices.

    Many, many people survive rough encounters they had not planned to occur simply through having a deep-seated desire to survive and to inflict on the "fates" a hard response worthy of being human.

    With respect to safety and security, specifically in response to the possibility of defending against a violent attack by someone desiring to take everything you have, I believe that it comes to this:

    1. One has a greater chance of surviving a violent attack if one has the physical means and desire to resist it; and
    2. One has a lesser chance of surviving a violent attack if one blindly submits to it as though its outcome were somehow "written" and already decided.


    Meaning, life's outcomes are not fated. One's choices in life matter, and how good those choices are can affect the outcome. Particularly when comparing (a) blindly offering up capitulation to (b) hard and dedicated resistance to crime, it's hard to believe that meek capitulation stands a chance of bettering the outcome afforded by giving a damn and committing to a hard response to any attempt to take everything a person has in this world.

    Per Charles Darwin's reminder: survival of the fittest. In the long run, only the strong survive.

    Per the U.S. Marines' mantra: Improvise, Adapt and Overcome.

    For the classically minded, Alexandre Dumas said it fairly well in the story The Count of Monte Cristo:

    "Life is a storm, my young friend. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes. You must look into that storm and shout as you did in Rome. 'Do your worst, for I will do mine!' Then the fates will know you as we know you: as Albert Mondego, the man!"

    What matters is what you do when the "storm" comes. Do something ... or nothing. That's the choice. All else flows from there.

    Me: I'm preparing to give it everything I've got, if such a day comes. But that's just me.

    YMMV.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Sure, If it's meant to be.. it will happen... bad guy walks into store guns me down... I have no gun, I die a martyr... I get 72 virgins... not such a bad deal, eh?

    In the "faith" of physics it's okay, too... I don't die in a parallel universe.

    In the faith of Christianity, I'll go meet God, cool wid dat, too.

    In Buddhism, I'm gonna live another life anyway... so it don't matter.
    __________________________________________________ __
    While I'm a Christian, I don't believe God wants me to lay down my life senselessly... I carry. To each their own, and good luck to your sis.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    The sister did not make a religious argument. She just enunciated the same thinking that leads most people to not carry a concealed weapon. "Fate," in this case, should not be mistaken for "God." Rather, it's a reference to statistical likelihood.
    It's just not that cut and dry. YOu could be absolutely right about why she is choosing this. But you could also be very wrong. And to "talk her out of this" would be very wrong as well, if it's is truly a religious decision. Christian pacifism does indeed exist, and it's a choice to not use violence. While I don't choose this route, I'm fine with others who do.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_pacifism
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    The quote comes from Aesop's fables (though many believe Benjamin Franklin coined it the way most of us know it).
    While not in the Bible, I think the sentiment is there. We are responsible for ourselves to a large degree.

    "Hercules and the Wagoneer."

    A WAGGONER was once driving a heavy load along a very muddy way. At last he came to a part of the road where the wheels sank half-way into the mire, and the more the horses pulled, the deeper sank the wheels. So the Waggoner threw down his whip, and knelt down and prayed to Hercules the Strong. "O Hercules, help me in this my hour of distress," quoth he. But Hercules appeared to him, and said:

    "Tut, man, donít sprawl there. Get up and put your shoulder to the wheel.

    "THE GODS HELP THEM THAT HELP THEMSELVES."
    I am a person of faith, and believe that fate is how tall I am, or the color of my eyes, things I actually can do nothing about.

    Yet there are plenty of opportunities for me to exercise free will. I can't make myself taller, but I can decide how much I will weigh (to a point). I have control over whether or not I smoke cigarettes, but may still end up with lung cancer (could be environmental, or genetics).

    I like this saying: "Pray toward Heaven. Row toward shore."
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gruntingfrog View Post
    According to the Bible, these are Jesus's own words:

    Matthew 6:25
    Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

    Matthew 6:30 - 31
    Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

    Matthew 6:34
    Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself.
    These verses do not mean what you seem to imply they mean. If I understand your intent, Jesus would be telling us to run around naked, waiting for someone to drop food into our mouths. I know of no one who understands these words in that way.

    Instead, he is talking about worry, obsessing over the basics of life, when there is much more for us to focus on beyond just food, drink, etc. IOW, the abundant life that Jesus talks about which includes not just the physical, but also the spiritual.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    But you attempt to lessen your chance of getting into an accident by being aware of your surroundings do you not?
    The point here is that a firearm (for most people) is a defense against an unlikely event. We face far greater and much more constant danger from prosaic threats like a traffic accident, illness, environmental toxins, a fall from a ladder or a slip in the shower.

    Here's the Top 7 most likely to get ya:

    1. Heart Disease
    Lifetime Odds: 1 in 5

    2. Cancer
    Lifetime Odds: 1 in 7

    3. Stroke
    Lifetime Odds: 1 in 24

    4. Motor Vehicle Accident
    Lifetime Odds: 1 in 84

    5. Suicide
    Lifetime Odds: 1 in 119

    6. Falling
    Lifetime Odds: 1 in 218

    7. Firearm Assault
    Lifetime Odds: 1 in 314

    But we don't put rubber mats and safety nets under ladders when we work. We just assume we'll beat the odds every time we head on up. So the individual who chooses either not to own firearms or carry them is making a personal assessment of risk and acting accordingly.

    Some people in high-risk professions really ought to take strong defensive measures, people like bodyguards, couriers, jewelers, etc. But if the average fellow in a normal environment elects to go unarmed, I don't criticize his or her decision. If they want to trust in fate, that's up to them. Personally, and I assume this goes for most people here, I have an aversion to being a victim and to mitigate that risk I train in armed and unarmed combat for practical and self-development reasons. Can't insist that anybody else walk the same path.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I do not believe in fate. I believe in God. Now God is a God of war, destroying his enemies and speaking things either into existance or destruction. And he has given us the ability to do the same. We have been given the authority to rule all, and because we don't exercise it, evil is prevalent on earth. But we must not look down on people of faith with a pacifist attitude, but rather take people and accept them on their level of understanding and development.

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Fate would imply a lack of free will. And if Iím not mistaken Augustine made it pretty well accepted that even with a Christian god we have free will, at least to the catholic dogma. And this was done before they decided to split up so does it not carry over to the protestant dogmas. So if we accept Augustineís arguments and that fate and free will are incompatible, can we not say that fate does not decide our life

  13. #42
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    I am a Christ follower. I don't understand why so many people have this meek pushover view of God. Probably all those precious moments figurines. God and his angels don't sit on puffy clouds with lambs and play the harp all day. If you look at the scriptures, when an angel appeared to anyone the first thing spoken was "Do not fear". I am assuming that the angels say this because the person they revealed themselves to just pee'd their pants.

    I encourage you to read the Bible. The sunday school view of God that many folks carry with them is not an accurate one.

    Matthew 10:34 ASV
    "Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

    -matt

  14. #43
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    Although, I can agree that to some extent that fate may affect any of us but I also believe that if it comes down to fate I'd like to be able to avert and change it if possible. We all have the will to survive.....fate or not.

  15. #44
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    Most people tend to pick and choose which part of the bible (or insert whatever religious text) they want to follow and ignore the rest.

  16. #45
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    Ask her why did Peter carry a short sword?
    Passage John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

    Weapon of the day - right?
    For God, Family and Country!

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